Ancient robot brains size extremely large

[Shardan13]

I know that I'm far from an expert and it seems to me that the TL 18 robot brain is too large for any robot chassis. How do you place such a brain in a vehicle or space ship? To fit in the largest robot chassis it needs to be produce at an extremely high TL. Both it and the TL 17 brain are so large their sizes need to be expressed in vehicle spaces or displacement tons.

 

[swordtart]

It can apparently fit in a size 1 robot.

RH p66 "In all cases, a robot brain can be accommodated by expending one Slot".

So the TL18 Computer 30 brain can be fitted into any robot for 1 slot. Or a size 30 robot at TL18 for no slots or a size 29 at TL19 etc.

This seems odd, but to confirm this note the example. There doesn't appear to be any scaling it's either 0 or 1 regardless of the complexity of the brain.

"For instance, a TL13 Very Advanced brain can be included in a Size 4 or larger robot at no Slot cost at TL13. That same brain could be incorporated into a smaller robot, down to Size 1 by using one Slot."

The brain upgrades also take up 1 slot regardless of the level of upgrade.

 

[Limpin Legin]

The way I read it, "slots" and "size" are dimensions of robot chassis, whereas "dTons" are ship dimensions and "spaces" are vehicular dimensions. The dimensional equivalents are given in the blue sidebar text on RH, pg 14. (IDK if the vehicular "spaces" are still compatible with the new VH26, since the new VH was built from the ground up, without trying to be compatible with it's predecessor.)

Anyway, a TL 18 Robot Brain Consciousness is rated as Computer/30. Therefore, according to RH pg 66, the chassis size needs to be minimum Size 30 for a zero slot cost. But a Size 30 chassis does not exist in the Robot Handbook. It is kind of interesting because the largest chassis size in the RH is size 8. The way I read that is a TL 18 consciousness won't fit into any single Zero Slot build chassis. The RH then goes into building at higher Tech Levels, but I won't do that because, if you got tech at TL 18, you should be able to make it usable at that level - so, what to do?

What you might be able to do is employ 4 x Size 8 chassis and combine them together, either ontop of each other or maybe side-by-side - I don't recall the RH saying you cannot combine multiple chassis in this way. That would give you a Size (8 x 4 = 32) and (128 x 4 = 512) Base slots. It will be the size of four Rhinos and cost 4 x Cr8,000 = Cr32,000 for the chassis alone.
I shall have to re-read the Robot Handbook, to see if that is still considered a legitimate build.

 

[Limpin Legin]

This seems odd, but to confirm this note the example.

I saw that possibility too and also thought it odd. It would mean you could fit the TL 18 Brain Consciousness into a chassis the size of a rat, just by expending 1 slot.

 

[swordtart]

I saw that possibility too and also thought it odd. It would mean you could fit the TL 18 Brain Consciousness into a chassis the size of a rat, just by expending 1 slot.

Yes, but there is no indication that Computer/30 takes any more space than Computer/5.

Based on CSC p67 a Computer/5 at TL18 is a microscopic chip. Given software can't exceed skill level 3 for robots all Computer 30 is doing is allowing you to have 10 of them loaded simultaneously. You could achieve that with 10 microscopic computers running in parallel so there is no real need for the brain to be bigger.

The vast majority of a brain will be the interfacing with the robots other systems and actuators and that will be broadly the same regardless of the power of the computer attached to it.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The way I read it, "slots" and "size" are dimensions of robot chassis, whereas "dTons" are ship dimensions and "spaces" are vehicular dimensions. The dimensional equivalents are given in the blue sidebar text on RH, pg 14. (IDK if the vehicular "spaces" are still compatible with the new VH26, since the new VH was built from the ground up, without trying to be compatible with it's predecessor.)

Anyway, a TL 18 Robot Brain Consciousness is rated as Computer/30. Therefore, according to RH pg 66, the chassis size needs to be minimum Size 30 for a zero slot cost. But a Size 30 chassis does not exist in the Robot Handbook. It is kind of interesting because the largest chassis size in the RH is size 8. The way I read that is a TL 18 consciousness won't fit into any single Zero Slot build chassis. The RH then goes into building at higher Tech Levels, but I won't do that because, if you got tech at TL 18, you should be able to make it usable at that level - so, what to do?

What you might be able to do is employ 4 x Size 8 chassis and combine them together, either ontop of each other or maybe side-by-side - I don't recall the RH saying you cannot combine multiple chassis in this way. That would give you a Size (8 x 4 = 32) and (128 x 4 = 512) Base slots. It will be the size of four Rhinos and cost 4 x Cr8,000 = Cr32,000 for the chassis alone.
I shall have to re-read the Robot Handbook, to see if that is still considered a legitimate build.

If you find where chassis can be combined, please share. I hate the size 8 cap on robots. Hate. It.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yes, but there is no indication that Computer/30 takes any more space than Computer/5.

Based on CSC p67 a Computer/5 at TL18 is a microscopic chip. Given software can't exceed skill level 3 for robots all Computer 30 is doing is allowing you to have 10 of them loaded simultaneously. You could achieve that with 10 microscopic computers running in parallel so there is no real need for the brain to be bigger.

The vast majority of a brain will be the interfacing with the robots other systems and actuators and that will be broadly the same regardless of the power of the computer attached to it.

Side note: the skill 3 cap goes away with conscious intelligences at TL18. Since that TL was mentioned.

 

[swordtart]

Side note: the skill 3 cap goes away with conscious intelligences at TL18. Since that TL was mentioned.

I must have missed that, can you cite the reference? I thought the cap of 3 applied to skill packages regardless of the brain using it*.

Conscious robots could learn skills like any other sophont, but these are limited to level 0 (and therefore do not take up bandwidth)

There comes a point where the cost of the package becomes prohibitive anyway. If you were able to go up to skill 5 then by extrapolation even the cheapest skill package would cost MCr10.

* Of course you can upgrade the intelligence of the TL18 brain so it is INT 18 (for only a 10% cost increase and 6 bandwidth) and get an effective +4 skill boost for a total effective skill of 7. For DEX based skills you might be able to get even higher as a TL18 robot could be upgrades to as high as DEX 21 (at exorbitant cost) for DM+5.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I must have missed that, can you cite the reference? I thought the cap of 3 applied to skill packages regardless of the brain using it*.

Conscious robots could learn skills like any other sophont, but these are limited to level 0 (and therefore do not take up bandwidth)

There comes a point where the cost of the package becomes prohibitive anyway. If you were able to go up to skill 5 then by extrapolation even the cheapest skill package would cost MCr10.

* Of course you can upgrade the intelligence of the TL18 brain so it is INT 18 and get an effective +4 skill boost for a total effective skill of 7. For DEX based skills you might be able to get even higher as a TL18 robot could be upgrades to as high as DEX 21 (at exorbitant cost) for DM+5.

I’m not sure it says that explicitly, but they don’t use expert software to use skills, and are meant to be like other sapient Travellers, so it is my belief that they don’t have that limitation. Perhaps @Geir could confirm or refute that?

 

[Limpin Legin]

If you find where chassis can be combined, please share. I hate the size 8 cap on robots. Hate. It.

Hi Terry, the size limitation appears to be only for general purpose robots. RH doesn't actually say chassis can or cannot be combined. It was just a bit of creative engineering lateral thinking on my behalf. At the time of writing, I hoped the book would allow it. Except I only find it has this to say about larger sized robots:

For the purposes of these design rules, general purpose robots range in size from a rat to a rhinoceros, from a kilogram to a few tons, or in terms of vehicle design, up to four vehicle Spaces in size. Anything larger is considered to be – and is physically designed as – a vehicle, though such larger designs may be fitted with a robot brain.
RH, pg 13

My interpretation is that rule doesn't actually disallow combing multiple chassis, it just says anything bigger than size 8 is considered and treated as "a vehicle", rather than a "general purpose" robot.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Hi Terry, the size limitation appears to be only for general purpose robots. RH doesn't actually say chassis can or cannot be combined. It was just a bit of creative engineering lateral thinking on my behalf. At the time of writing, I hoped the book would allow it. Except I only find it has this to say about larger sized robots:

My interpretation is that rule doesn't actually disallow combing multiple chassis, it just says anything bigger than size 8 is considered and treated as "a vehicle", rather than a "general purpose" robot.

And built with the vehicle rules. I hate that limitation.

 

[To Tha Moon!]

it seems to me that the TL 18 robot brain is too large for any robot chassis. How do you place such a brain in a vehicle or space ship? To fit in the largest robot chassis it needs to be produce at an extremely high TL. Both it and the TL 17 brain are so large their sizes need to be expressed in vehicle spaces or displacement tons.

"Herre I am, brain the size of a planet..."

 

[swordtart]

"Herre I am, brain the size of a planet..."

View attachment 8014

Clearly the shape of a planet, not so much the size

 

[swordtart]

I’m not sure it says that explicitly, but they don’t use expert software to use skills, and are meant to be like other sapient Travellers, so it is my belief that they don’t have that limitation. Perhaps @Geir could confirm or refute that?

View attachment 8012

I don't think so. My assumption was that they were still robots and all robots are programmed (the rules on Robots as Travellers also makes it clear that skills are from packages and must fit within bandwidth).

The exception to programmed skills is that Advanced brains and above can exceed their programming and "pick-up" a number of extra level 0 skills equal to their computer level (so our TL18 Computer/30 robot could have 30 extra level zero skills). These can be cost free if picked up in play or can be bought as normal. The level 0 is absolute so robots cannot "learn" skills at Skill level 1, but obviously the Intelligence DM of our subject robot would boost any level 0 skills to effective level 3.

If you want a skill level of 1 to 3 it has to be from a package and there is no skill package greater than level 3.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I don't think so. My assumption was that they were still robots and all robots are programmed (the rules on Robots as Travellers also makes it clear that skills are from packages and must fit within bandwidth).

The exception to programmed skills is that Advanced brains and above can exceed their programming and "pick-up" a number of extra level 0 skills equal to their computer level (so our TL18 Computer/30 robot could have 30 extra level zero skills). These can be cost free if picked up in play or can be bought as normal. The level 0 is absolute so robots cannot "learn" skills at Skill level 1, but obviously the Intelligence DM of our subject robot would boost any level 0 skills to effective level 3.

If you want a skill level of 1 to 3 it has to be from a package and there is no skill package greater than level 3.

We’ll have to disagree, then. Unless @Geir clears it up, it is up to interpretation.

 

[Shardan13]

If you can use the vehicle rules to place the TL 18 brain into a vehicle sized chassis that fits then you should be able to fit a smaller robot brain into a vehicle without wrapping it in a chassis from the robot handbook first.

I'm unsure if you actually can actually slip the TL 18 brain straight into the vehicle sized chassis (the rules are silent about this).

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Clearly the shape of a planet, not so much the size

His skull casing is a tardis so it is the size of a planet internally.

 

[Condottiere]

Does he know the question that leads to the answer of forty two?

 

[swordtart]

We’ll have to disagree, then. Unless @Geir clears it up, it is up to interpretation.

Yes, conscious as a description for a brain isn't that useful other than in fluffy terms. This article seems to indicate that scientist now consider many animals are conscious. That does not mean they are academically intelligent or can learn skills (learned responses to stimulus is a different matter). Part of the question is whether Conscious Robot brains learn like sophonts or do they train themselves like an AI. Repeating an observed action and learning a sequence of action-consequence and applying it in similar circumstances would teach you the mechanics of a task, but wouldn't necessarily get you the insight into craftsmanship.

I am content that even if non-programmed skills are capped at Skill Level 0, it makes a Conscious brain far more capable than the average sophont simply due to the INT modifier. Given the number of skills in the game, a Computer/30 could have all of them at 0 for a tiny fraction of the cost of the brain itself and you might as well install them all. An artificial brain with every mental skill at an effective level 3 would be formidable and make most sophonts redundant as they equate to a skilled professional in every field.

All this is without touching the bandwidth for ordinary skill packages. Level 2 packages for 15 skills would not break the bank (proportional to brain cost) and that would be effective skill level 5 which is probably the world authority on that subject.

The intelligence upgrade to get them INT 18 would make them a casual expert in everything and a world authority on 30 other subjects (with level-1 packages) and quite likely no fun at all at parties.

 

[CordwainerFish]

His skull casing is a tardis so it is the size of a planet internally.