Advanced Missiles and missile combat

[PsiTraveller]

I have been thinking about missile combat and what higher tech missiles can do to a combat. Am I missing something in the math or does it pay pretty well to buy really altered missiles whenever you can?
Suppose a TL 14 planet was producing missiles for combat. The Altering Tech levels on pg 48 of Highguard shows a TL 14 planet could produce TL 17 (+ 3 TL's) weapons for +50% of the cost. This would give 3 Advantages. Taking Very High Yield for the missiles means the missiles would do 5D and the average per dice would be 4, or 20 points of damage for a missile.
Another option is to take Accurate and get a +1 Dm to all attacks. This also takes 2 Advantages.

The 3rd advantage as it applies to missiles (and not the missile launcher) is a little difficult to choose. Not much makes sense for a missile advantage. The TL 17 gives an additional advanage of a +1 TL bonus against all lower tech enemies. Otherwise you could go for a TL 16 missile with only 2 Advantages and a +25% cost.

The benefit for a high tech missile is the way the salvos attack a target. As page 162 in the Core book points out, missiles do not use the Gunner skill, they roll a base 2D and add +1 DM for every missile in the Salvo. In addition, since the missile is smart it gains a +1 Dm for every tech level higher than the target ship. So assuming a TL 12 target this would mean a +5DM for the TL 17 missile. A 3 missile salvo from a triple turret would add +3 to that for a +8 DM.

An average attack roll of 7 plus the +8 Dm is 15 for a Effect of 7. This would be maxed at Effect 3 as per the rules under "Impact" on pg 162. An average damage roll for the Salvo would be 20 times Effect of 3 for 60 points of damage minus the armour of the ship. This is pretty expensive for a Salvo of three since each missile costs almost 44 thousand credits, but the 130 thousand credits spent should do more damage than the cost of the missiles, unless the ship is extremely well armoured.

A salvo of 6 missiles would do 120 points of damage and devastate most ships.

One question though. A salvo of TL 17 smart missiles is still as vulnerable to the Electronic Warfare check of 10+ Sensors from a TL 12 tramp trader? there is no bonus or opposed roll check due to the higher TL of the missiles? That strikes me as a little odd, but I am not sure of a good mechanic to give missiles a chance of surviving a really good Sensor operator.

 

[Jeraa]

Even the most basic gunner (skill level 0, no other modifiers) will shoot down a missile on an average roll if given a triple laser turret. Additional modifiers beyond that just make it easier to take down multiple missiles on an average check. Fragmentation missiles (Cr16,667 each) will reduce the oncoming salve by 1 for each frag missile launched, with no check needed. Make them Budget missiles with the advanced/primitive tech rules, with the inaccurate disadvantage (which, as no roll is necessary for a frag missile to take out another missile, will have no effect), and they cost Cr12,500 each.

An average attack roll of 7 plus the +8 Dm is 15 for a Effect of 7. This would be maxed at Effect 3 as per the rules under "Impact" on pg 162. An average damage roll for the Salvo would be 20 times Effect of 3 for 60 points of damage minus the armour of the ship. This is pretty expensive for a Salvo of three since each missile costs almost 44 thousand credits, but the 130 thousand credits spent should do more damage than the cost of the missiles, unless the ship is extremely well armoured.

Armor is applied to the first missiles damage, before you multiple by the effect. That makes more than a bit of difference for armored ships.

It is very easy to stop missiles. No matter how advanced, they are really only worth it if you can overwhelm the targets point defense.

Edit: I just noticed you are also applying the advanced/primitive rules wrong. Your advanced missile would be TL 17, which can't be produced by a TL 14 world. You would need a TL 17 to make those missiles. The best a TL 14 world could do is make TL 16 weapons as early prototypes. Standard missiles are TL 7. Making them High Technology (3 advantages) boosts them to TL 10.

The Advanced, Very Advanced, and High Technology modifiers are applied to old technology, to bring them up to date with your current TL. The Early Prototype and Prototype modifiers are what is used to make a higher tech level weapon craftable at a lower TL. At best, you might be able to combine the two - an Early Prototype Very Advanced weapon. +1025% price, double the size, 2 disadvantages, and 2 advantages. I don't know if the rules allow that, however.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Ack good point, I completely did the chart backwards. Wow, that is a screwup. See what happens when you post tired and daft?

A 100 percent increase in tonnage for a TL 16 missile makes for a problem for shooting a missile from a launcher. So this is a problem for my idea.

On the other hand, now looking at the chart correctly. The best way to apply the chart bonuses would be to take a TL 14 computer/ship to give a +2 DM vs a TL 12 ship, and then make missiles that are 3 Tl's improved to give Advantages.

Reading the chart correctly this time ( I fervently hope). You could take a Multi Warhead missile of TL 8 and improve it to TL 10 or 11 standards for a 25 or 50% increase in cost. Good options for missiles would be Accurate for 2 Advantages or Extra High Yield.

The attack roll would be TL 14 for the ship firing them, plus the +1 DM per missile (multiplied by 3 for the Multi warhead bonus). This is where the Effect Roll multiplier would come into play. So the 3 missiles from the first example would become 9 missiles. The Effect would be a roll of 7 (average) + 2 Dm for Tech bonus of the Smart weapon, + 9 for the number of missiles. For an Effect of 10, maxed out at 9 for the number of warheads/missiles.

Damage would be 3D, average 4 for Very High yield, or 12, minus armour, times 9. So not as devastating as I had hoped, unless the ship does not have 12 points of armour. A Far Trader with 5 points of armour would take 12-5=7 X 9 or 63 points of damage. This would result in some serious critical hits and expensive repairs. A good investment, assuming EW checks let any missiles through.





At least I think so. I am off to get some sleep and look at this in the morning. Thanks for catching my screwup so fast.

 

[Jeraa]

The attack roll would be TL 14 for the ship firing them, plus the +1 DM per missile (multiplied by 3 for the Multi warhead bonus). This is where the Effect Roll multiplier would come into play. So the 3 missiles from the first example would become 9 missiles. The Effect would be a roll of 7 (average) + 2 Dm for Tech bonus of the Smart weapon, + 9 for the number of missiles. For an Effect of 10, maxed out at 9 for the number of warheads/missiles.

Missiles have their own guidance system (that is what the Smart trait represents). Nothing on the ship itself would help, so the firing ship being TL 14 means nothing. It is the missile TL that matters. So that drops it to average roll of 7, +1 from the missiles Smart trait (the TL 10 or 11 missile is below the target ships TL of 12, but Smart grants a minimum +1 bonus regardless of tech level differences) + 9 for the number of missiles. That gives an Effect of 9, so no actual change there.

That is assuming that none of the missiles are shot down first. Or electronic warfare (which can be done over multiple rounds, not only when the missiles are about to strike like with point defense; also will be done against the 3 non-split missiles, so fewer targets to disrupt), or the target ship dodges with an evasive action.

A 100 percent increase in tonnage for a TL 16 missile makes for a problem for shooting a missile from a launcher. So this is a problem for my idea.

In theory, you could apply the advanced/primitive rules to the turret itself. It is a component, and does have its own tech level. An Early Prototype missile (2xthe size) could possible be launched from an Early Prototype turret (also 2x the size, so 2 tons instead of 1). It wouldn't actually be an Early Prototype turret, just a bigger one than normal to mount a bigger than normal weapon. I would allow it at least. I wouldn't allow any additional weapons, though. OR, launched from a torpedo tube, possibly with a sabot of some kind to make up the size difference.

If you can make an early prototype missile that is twice the size as normal, it only makes sense you can make a way to launch that missile as well.

Likewise, I see no reason you couldn't apply the Size Reduction advantage to a turret. I would also require that the weapon included in that turret also be similarly reduced in size. Then you could make smaller missiles, and hold a few more more per ton.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Note that missiles almost always have the Smart trait
(see page 75). For missiles, use the TL of the missile
itself or that of the attacking ship, whichever is greater.
page 162 Core Book under Missiles and Targets

So a TL 14 Ship firing TL 11 missiles gets the TL 14 bonus to the attack roll if the ship TL is greater than the missile TL

I agree about the salvo's being whittled down by EW defense, or shot apart by point defense. I am just noodling around trying to come up with a raiding ship that can do large amounts of damage despite being of small size. Missiles allow a pretty big force multiplier with the Effect multiplying rule. Boosting the Effect for large salvos can cause crippling damage to a ship.

Another alternative would be to improve a Long Range missile with Thrust 15 and get shots from long range to hit immediately. This will shorten the time the opposing ship has to EW the salvo. Point Defence batteries would still work of course, if the ship has them.

Like I said, I am just trying to figure out a scenario for raiding and damage at a cost efficient rate.

 

[allanimal]

Fragmentation missiles (Cr16,667 each) will reduce the oncoming salve by 1 for each frag missile launched, with no check needed. Make them Budget missiles with the advanced/primitive tech rules, with the inaccurate disadvantage (which, as no roll is necessary for a frag missile to take out another missile, will have no effect), and they cost Cr12,500 each.

I as a GM would not allow this.... while it may be the letter of the law, getting something for nothing violates the intention of the rule...

 

[Jeraa]

Note that missiles almost always have the Smart trait
(see page 75). For missiles, use the TL of the missile
itself or that of the attacking ship, whichever is greater.
page 162 Core Book under Missiles and Targets

So a TL 14 Ship firing TL 11 missiles gets the TL 14 bonus to the attack roll if the ship TL is greater than the missile TL

My bad. I was wrong. Stupid rule. Missiles don't benefit from any of the gunner's abilities, and presumable also don't benefit from anything that improves the gunner's abilities (like software). Why should the firing ships TL matter?

I agree about the salvo's being whittled down by EW defense, or shot apart by point defense. I am just noodling around trying to come up with a raiding ship that can do large amounts of damage despite being of small size. Missiles allow a pretty big force multiplier with the Effect multiplying rule. Boosting the Effect for large salvos can cause crippling damage to a ship.

I'm just trying to point out that missiles only look like a big force multiplier because you are assuming the best possible situation for the missile firer - a target that does absolutely nothing to prevent a hit. Actual combat effectiveness would be reduced, as targets don't want to be hit and will do whatever necessary to prevent it.

Like I said, I am just trying to figure out a scenario for raiding and damage at a cost efficient rate.

Cost efficient rates would be using unlimited shot energy weapons. More expensive up front, but cheaper over time (no reloads to buy). Unlimited ammunition (as long as you have a power plant), can't be shot down or stopped by electronic warfare. Less damage per shot, but ultimately more effective.

 

[Jeraa]

Fragmentation missiles (Cr16,667 each) will reduce the oncoming salve by 1 for each frag missile launched, with no check needed. Make them Budget missiles with the advanced/primitive tech rules, with the inaccurate disadvantage (which, as no roll is necessary for a frag missile to take out another missile, will have no effect), and they cost Cr12,500 each.

I as a GM would not allow this.... while it may be the letter of the law, getting something for nothing violates the intention of the rule...

You aren't getting something for nothing. While there would be no effect in this specific case (when used as an anti-missile), you still take the -1 penalty when used normally against other ships. Presumably, the penalty to hit would apply against all of the targets of the missile - not only the first, but the up to 3 other craft as well.

Fragmentation missiles are an anti-ship missile that just happen to have an anti-missile function as well. Te penalty still applies to its primary use.

 

[steve98052]

The biggest way to make missiles more effective is to increase their numbers to the point where they overwhelm the defender's defenses and more missiles make it through. To launch more missiles, bring more turrets to the battle. Because you're limited to one turret per hundred dtons, but craft under 100 dtons can always mount a minimum of one turret, give your attack ship a launch tube and a bunch of fighters. Or put fighters on external mounts and give the attack ship spare fuel tankage so it can retreat by jump if things look bad in a system where it can't refuel.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The biggest way to make missiles more effective is to increase their numbers to the point where they overwhelm the defender's defenses and more missiles make it through.

Exactly.

... but craft under 100 dtons can always mount a minimum of one turret, ...

Not any longer. Smallcraft uses firmpoints in 2nd edition. A small fighter can only mount a single missile launcher.

But even small ships can mount missile bays, they only cost a single hardpoint. Even a Free Trader has the space for a small bay.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Altering Tech levels on pg 48 of Highguard shows a TL 14 planet could produce TL 17 (+ 3 TL's) weapons for +50% of the cost. This would give 3 Advantages.

Missiles are ammunition, not weapons. Only entire weapon systems can use the tech advantages. When you upgrade the entire system, you probably can't use standard missiles, at least not with the upgrade bonus.

The advantages/disadvantages are meant for the weapon systems not the ammunition. They may not apply to all types of weapon systems (such as long range really wouldn't apply to missiles/torpedoes).

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=898696#p898696


I think the best way is to install as many missile bays (with reduced size) as you can.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Actually, as was pointed out I made a huge error and read the chart backwards. A TL 14 planet could make a TL 16 Early Protype that was twice the tonnage and 10 times the cost.

Good point about the ammunition not being changed and it being the turret or weapon that is adjusted. I would argue that the missile is actually the weapon part of the equation and not the launching system. It is the thing that is doing the damage. A missile rolls its own attack roll, so the Accurate advantage could be seen as higher tech on board targeting systems (a smarter smart missile).

The point of energy weapons being cheaper in the long run and not needing reloads is well taken. I've done a lot of designs on here that focus on long or very long range AP damage. I am playing around with missiles because the rule of multiplying the damage by the Effect is so tempting. It offers a chance to really hammer an opposing ship for the price of a salvo of missiles, and the logistical need to be tied to a supply chain that supplies the missiles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Actually, as was pointed out I made a huge error and read the chart backwards. A TL 14 planet could make a TL 16 Early Protype that was twice the tonnage and 10 times the cost.

Yes, obviously. I just wanted to address my comments.

Good point about the ammunition not being changed and it being the turret or weapon that is adjusted. I would argue that the missile is actually the weapon part of the equation and not the launching system. It is the thing that is doing the damage. A missile rolls its own attack roll, so the Accurate advantage could be seen as higher tech on board targeting systems (a smarter smart missile).

I think the point is that the entire system is changed: turret, launcher, and missiles together. To get the bonus you have to use the right missile in the right launcher.

 

[allanimal]

Fragmentation missiles (Cr16,667 each) will reduce the oncoming salve by 1 for each frag missile launched, with no check needed. Make them Budget missiles with the advanced/primitive tech rules, with the inaccurate disadvantage (which, as no roll is necessary for a frag missile to take out another missile, will have no effect), and they cost Cr12,500 each.

I as a GM would not allow this.... while it may be the letter of the law, getting something for nothing violates the intention of the rule...

You aren't getting something for nothing. While there would be no effect in this specific case (when used as an anti-missile), you still take the -1 penalty when used normally against other ships. Presumably, the penalty to hit would apply against all of the targets of the missile - not only the first, but the up to 3 other craft as well.

Fragmentation missiles are an anti-ship missile that just happen to have an anti-missile function as well. Te penalty still applies to its primary use.

OK, that's what I get for not reading the rules. I assumed the frag missiles were only good for anti-missile usage...

 

[Condottiere]

Fragmentation clouds are area effects; the fragments usually aren't guided.

 

[Jeraa]

Fragmentation clouds are area effects; the fragments usually aren't guided.

True. But the penalty for being inaccurate could represent the missile itself not being able to get into an ideal position before fragmenting, making it less likely the intended target is in the area the fragments go. Or the missile bursts too soon (and the fragments are too spread out to do any real harm) or too late (and the target isn't in the area).

 

[Condottiere]

That is a point, though, we know where the missile is heading to in a hurry without the means of really zig zagging their way through space, at least not without significantly sacrificing acceleration, which would slow them down.

Also, missiles or ammunition in general, and the launching platform are tied together; you really can't mix seven and five millimetre ammunition, without really specifying how you're shrinking or increasing the size of the launching platform, which could effect magazine size and how many actual launchers you'd have that can bear.