A letter to my beloved Mongoose

[kungfugenius]

Love Traveller and all of the wonderful products that Mongoose produces but I have a bone to pick. Remember, love you guys but...

I have spent upwards of 200 quid/320 dollars (roughly) on Traveller material and have thoroughly read each book from cover to cover. My gripe is that for the amount of money I pay for the books, there should be some sort of editing involved or proof reading before a book is released. No insult intended. I know you're an indie publisher and cannot do color but could you at least get a decent artist? Some of the pictures in the book look like someone took a crayon and doodled something on a tissue. Again, no disrespect intended.

In the core book I have noted at least 12 misspellings and 3 instances where the information on a chart was completely wrong mathematically and grammatically. I've just read the adventure Prison Planet and there are run on sentences and the like. As an example, the table for random items that prisoners can find says to roll one dice and designate it as the tens, roll a second and designate it as the ones. Well, if you do that it should be an 11 - 66 table as usual but it's not. The table is absolutely off. There's even an entry for rolling 81... which is impossible. Another thing is that on two of my books, Prison Planet and Traders & Gunboats... the last 20 pages look like the page numbers started sliding off. So instead of page 123 all you can see is the number 1 for that page.

All I'm saying is that I love the products and you've done a wonderful job bringing Traveller into a new era of gaming but could you please proof read the products before releasing them and distribute products that are of a higher quality for the price. I'm also an artist and would love to provide artwork for your books. I work for free books.

 

[AndrewW]

know you're an indie publisher and cannot do color but could you at least get a decent artist?

Actually color (or colour as Mongoose would say) is coming.

 

[kungfugenius]

Actually color (or colour as Mongoose would say) is coming.

Really?! Wow, that would be awesome.

 

[Strangelove]

know you're an indie publisher and cannot do color but could you at least get a decent artist?

Actually color (or colour as Mongoose would say) is coming.

I prefer excellent line art to color or the smudgy greyscale images in some books.

 

[AndrewW]

Actually color (or colour as Mongoose would say) is coming.

Really?! Wow, that would be awesome.

Take a look at the previews for Hammer Slammers and Judge Dredd.

 

[sergeant_x]

Better production values would be nice, as long as focus remains on the game design and written material. As far as colo(u)r, I for one prefer clarity over eye-candy. I bought a copy of the Serenity RPG and, as a rulebook, it's nearly unusable. The garish colors and busy graphics, combined with the awkward attempts to use the Firefly slang in the text of the rules, makes learning the game a mess. After a few hours I had to dig out my little black books to remind myself of the joys of straight-forward writing and clean, low-overhead illustrations.

 

[EDG]

A lot of publishers seem to think that decent editing and proof-reading and layout is an option, not a necessity. Hell, one actually flat out said that people still bought their atrociously edited books so it clearly didn't matter if it was done properly (that somewhat bit them in the arse shortly after though...).

Small press publishers seem to make a lot more effort in this regard than the big ones (and I do include Mongoose in the latter). If they can do it then it makes any excuses the big companies come up with for the low quality of their editing etc seem rather lame. Certainly, I'm not going to fork out $30-$50 for an RPG book if it doesn't have good editing and damn good proof-reading - I've been burned enough times by that in the past.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

I've just read the adventure Prison Planet and there are run on sentences and the like. As an example, the table for random items that prisoners can find says to roll one dice and designate it as the tens, roll a second and designate it as the ones. Well, if you do that it should be an 11 - 66 table as usual but it's not. The table is absolutely off. There's even an entry for rolling 81... which is impossible.

There are Dice Modifiers that apply to specific dice on that chart. If you've got a +2DM on the first die only, and roll a 6 on the first die and a 1 on the second die, then that's a result of 6+2=8, 1, or 81.

 

[Stainless]

I would have to agree with the original poster. The proof-reading/editing of all of the Traveller books has had a lot to be desired. However, unlike kungfugenius I have NOT purchased most of the Traveller books because of this. Instead I'll buy them later when I really need them and in the hope that they have been corrected by then. :roll:

 

[kungfugenius]

I prefer excellent line art to color or the smudgy greyscale images in some books.

Same here. I've always loved black and white comics and great ink drawings. I am a graphic artist myself and really think the art in Traveller could use a face lift. In most cases it does look like a rough pencil drawing was just scanned and put in the final product. I will say this, the Vargr and Big Rolf in Prison Planet looked pretty good.

for one prefer clarity over eye-candy.

Completely agree with you. I have played many different systems and I must say that there is a reason DND is the most popular tabletop RPG out there. The art work is beautiful, classy, and well thought out. Every page is a work of art with excellent layouts and high quality products. Seriously, I have thought of not playing Traveller anymore because of the sub par quality of the books and the fact that I pay 30-45+ dollars for a book that isn't even a hard cover book.

Unless I see some changes such as higher quality editing, hardcover books, better artwork, etc. I'm just going to have to end our relationship. I like Traveller, but I like my time and money more.

 

[sergeant_x]

for one prefer clarity over eye-candy.

Completely agree with you. I have played many different systems and I must say that there is a reason DND is the most popular tabletop RPG out there. The art work is beautiful, classy, and well thought out. Every page is a work of art with excellent layouts and high quality products. Seriously, I have thought of not playing Traveller anymore because of the sub par quality of the books and the fact that I pay 30-45+ dollars for a book that isn't even a hard cover book.

Unless I see some changes such as higher quality editing, hardcover books, better artwork, etc. I'm just going to have to end our relationship. I like Traveller, but I like my time and money more.

I'm not sure you do agree with me. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was saying that I prefer sparse layout and black and white artwork. That said, I recognize that the "pretties" sell books, so I don't begrudge publishers who go there, but when they let it get in the way of clarity, I'm miffed. For my money, the latest editions of DnD are far too busy. They're not the worst in terms of being convoluted, but I still prefer rules texts that get to the point, which is: players and their imaginations fueling the creativity, not fancy art design.

 

[EDG]

They're not the worst in terms of being convoluted, but I still prefer rules texts that get to the point, which is: players and their imaginations fueling the creativity, not fancy art design.

Actually, the D&D4e rules very much get to the point - it's just that they also don't look like ass in the process (I wouldn't want to get a book that looked like CT or D&D1e nowadays, for example). The MGT corebook is not bad though - at least, the later versions without the amateur scribbles for character artwork aren't. (and I can't really think of any instance where "fancy art design" ever gets in the way of "players and their imaginations fueling the creativity". However, stupid layout with dark text on dark backgrounds in wiggly fonts is usually problematic )

 

[sergeant_x]

However, stupid layout with dark text on dark backgrounds in wiggly fonts is usually problematic

Yeah... that's mostly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. I just wish they'd resist the urge to tile some stupid flashy textured background on every other page. Since the cost to do that kind of stuff has come down so much, publishers with a little money can't seem to resist the urge to pimp out the books to the point that they're unreadable. I'll take your word for it on 4e - I haven't look that closely. I've seen some real disasters in the last few years though.

 

[Gamerguy]

:shock:
Yea well, Classic Traveller had HIGH production values, but the later versions of Traveller have slid a little on that.

The Keith brothers knew how to do artwork! Anyway, I have all the Gurps Traveller books and I'd say the Mongoose artwork is the same quality as Gurps Traveller had.

The writing is very brit and well, I hate to say it, errata happens. My Gurps Traveller books suffered from this too.

One way to get the best artwork and editing is to buy later editions and printings. The Gurps Traveller books improved both artwork and editing in later print runs.

8)

 

[tneva82]

The art work is beautiful, classy, and well thought out. Every page is a work of art with excellent layouts and high quality products.

Myself I prefer good rules. I can live with subpar artwork if rules are good. I can't live with crappy rules like D&D4 has.

Art is just eye candy. I want the real meat of RPG books to be good and not the eye candy since I play rather than admire pictures. Haven't seen any RPG book yet where art is even anywhere near as useful as the rules and setting describitions themselves.

 

[EDG]

I can't live with crappy rules like D&D4 has.

That's very much a matter of opinion.

 

[tneva82]

I can't live with crappy rules like D&D4 has.

That's very much a matter of opinion.

One shared by quite a few. Those rules are designed for hack&slash gaming for kids. Not for roleplaying games. WOTC decided RPG'ers isn't good source of income anymore compared to kids who just want simple hack&slash games instead of RPG's so that's where they went.

Now if you need to introduce <10yo kids to RPG's and have plenty of beatiful miniatures then D&D4 has it's place but that's about all it's good for. When it's geared toward go to place A, kill all, go to place B, kill all type of story lines that's all it's good for. It has no internal logic to speak off and tons of stupidity like everybody and their uncle having magic powers at their disposal. WTF? Whoever heard of a thief which employs magic powers at will? Fighter? Barbarian? For that matter COOK would have magic powers...And nevermind they don't even consider what that widespread use of magic powers means to the world.

Yeah these orcs are really scary. They kill humans like there's no tomorrow. But wait a sec. Raising dead back to life is no problem whatsoever so why precicely orcs are problem anyway? You can't run out of human soldiers ever since they can be resurrected so that's hardly issue. Just wear them out. And that's just one simple stupidity they didn't consider. Plenty more where they came from.

 

[kristof65]

Just some quick thoughts regarding editing/proofreading/etc:

Overall, I've noticed a general decline in how well books/ads are proofread, unless it's from a company who's been publishing for a long time. Part of that it is because the overall publishing process has changed from what it used to be.

I worked for a typesetting company back in the 80s, before desktop publishing and WYSIWG formatting became wide spread. Back then, in order to get a book published, the contents were typically sent to a typesetting firm or departmant, where the formatting was set by a specialized operator. That operator then sent the file onto specialized high resolution film printers, and the results were proofread by one or more people who double checked the formatting. As a result of checking the formatting, little things like spelling errors, etc, were caught.

So when something like TSR's original AD&D books were published, you could have 6-9 people proofreading them easy. Your writer, his/her editor, the layout person, the typesetter formatter, the typesetter's proofreaders, the printer, etc. And because typesetting and printing was costly process, there was special emphasis on catching these type of mistakes. At the typesetter I worked for, employees who had completed their other duties were set to proofreading as "make work" - I was a delivery driver for them for half the time I worked for them, and I spent plenty of time proofreading between delivery runs. I'd guess that most copy sent through our company was seen/proofread by 5 people minimum - and that doesn't count any proof reading before, and after we dealt with it.

These days, the process can be extremely streamlined. A single person can write and layout a book, and then send it straight to the printer. For many smaller companies who try to make an effort, only 3 people actually deal with the document - the writer, the editor and the layout person.

The thing is, with the streamlined publishing processes we have these days, a publisher really needs to make an effort to catch these things. IMO, a minimum of 5 people besides the writer should review every document before AND after it's sent to the layout guy. At least one of these people should ideally be a "professional" proofreader who's first view of the document is the first time they proofread it.

I have no idea what Mongoose's processes and proofreading policies are. But obviously, they aren't sufficient. Fortunately, they are a lot better than much of the crap I've seen.

 

[Dave Chase]

I think some individuals frustration with Mongoose's proofing issues on Traveller also come from

The fact that they have offered at little to no cost to Mongoose to proof read the material for them as a second or third set of eyes.

I have put off buying Mongoose Traveller material when it first comes out right now, because I want to wait for the updated version with corrections.

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

One shared by quite a few.

Which is fine, it's not going to be for everyone's tastes. But if you're going to rant about it (as you do here) then at least base your opinions on actual facts.

Those rules are designed for hack&slash gaming for kids. Not for roleplaying games. WOTC decided RPG'ers isn't good source of income anymore compared to kids who just want simple hack&slash games instead of RPG's so that's where they went.

And I suppose you have it direct from WotC that they are deliberately ignoring all of the adult RPG market, do you? That's utter rubbish, pure and simple. Not to mention an insult to everyone who plays and enjoys 4e.

When it's geared toward go to place A, kill all, go to place B, kill all type of story lines that's all it's good for.

Funny, I remember playing basic D&D and that's pretty much "all it was good for" too - along with most of the editions since then too. D&D's always been combat-heavy, but that's certainly not all it can do, and 4e is no different. It's all in how the DM runs the game, not in the rules.

It has no internal logic to speak off and tons of stupidity like everybody and their uncle having magic powers at their disposal. WTF? Whoever heard of a thief which employs magic powers at will? Fighter? Barbarian? For that matter COOK would have magic powers...And nevermind they don't even consider what that widespread use of magic powers means to the world.

This demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea how 4e works at all. There's a LOT of internal logic and consistency in 4e, and the fact that everyone has at-will/encounter/daily powers doesn't necessarily mean that "everyone has magic powers", it just means that everyone has stuff that they can do at-will, or once per encounter, or once per day. That may be anything from "fire a magic missile" to "do a cleave attack with a weapon".

Yeah these orcs are really scary. They kill humans like there's no tomorrow. But wait a sec. Raising dead back to life is no problem whatsoever so why precicely orcs are problem anyway? You can't run out of human soldiers ever since they can be resurrected so that's hardly issue. Just wear them out. And that's just one simple stupidity they didn't consider. Plenty more where they came from.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about - raising the dead back to life in D&D is not an easy proposition. If you're knocked down to below 0 hp during combat then you can be healed back up to greater than 0 hp, but you've got those 55/45 death rolls to survive while you're below 0 hp. And if you think surviving three of those is too lenient then just reduce it to "if you fail one, you're dead".

It's perfectly fine for you to just dislike the game, but do us all a favour and actually play the game for a while and try to make a serious attempt to understand it before you launch into baseless screeds about why it's the way it is or how it works.