5-foot stepping in Conan

Clegane

Mongoose
Howdy.
Just ran my first Conan session tonight for a 5-player party. Was an absolute blast. But the course of play brought up a few good questions that I'd appreciate some help in clarifying.

I know that 5-foot steps are vastly different from standard 3.X rules in that they now provoke when combined with any other action. My query here...is do the other standard rules for provoking apply in the new 5-ft step rule?

Specifically, if a 5-foot step is being combined with an action, does it provoke in the square it is vacating? Or the square it is entering? Or both?
Standard 3.X would have it provoking only in the exiting squre, but we weren't sure whether or not the rules were different here and the book doesn't seem to clarify.

Secondly, does AP factor in against Hardness when sundering weapons in Conan? I am assuming that it does not, as every weak-arm with a warhammer would suddenly be shattering 75% of the weapons in the game...but I wanted to get a general consensus. The rules themselves seem unclear. How is everyone handling this matter?

Thanks!
 

BhilJhoanz

Mongoose
Just think of the 5' step as normal movement that can be taken in conjunction with a full round action. In this way, it only provokes AoO's when leaving a threatened square.

I don't think the rules specify about the effect of weapon AP vs object hardness. I'd guess that it should -- if it's powerful enough to punch through armor, it should be powerful enough to break a sword.
 

Murte

Mongoose
As far as the 5' step rule, we play that 5' steps only provoke AoO if the action taken provokes. Otherwise it makes no sense that one can move 30' and attack without provoking, but can't take a 5' step and attack without provoking.

AP vs. hardness, it does say AP is applied only to DR. There is also a big difference between inflicting damage on someone and breaking through the armour. A mace doesn't so much "break" armour as it does rattle the fella wearing it. Not to mention there is more "flex" to a weapon being held.
 
the way it reads is that if you take any action with a five foot step you provoke an AOO, so surly that means if you move into a square that is threatened and try to attack the individual that is threatening the square you've just entered, they get to make an AOO on you first, this combined with the fact that on a round you take five foot step you cant make any other move action means it's pretty pointless.
 

argo

Mongoose
Clegane said:
Specifically, if a 5-foot step is being combined with an action, does it provoke in the square it is vacating? Or the square it is entering? Or both?
Standard 3.X would have it provoking only in the exiting squre, but we weren't sure whether or not the rules were different here and the book doesn't seem to clarify.

AoO's due to movement, including the 5' step in Conan, are provoked when you leave a threatened square, not when you enter one. Conan does not change this (see p 162, under Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Moving).

Note that if all you do for an entire round is just move 5' you do not draw an AoO.

Note that if all you do for an entire round is move (up to twice your speed) the square you start in is not considered threatened (AKA: Withdraw).

Secondly, does AP factor in against Hardness when sundering weapons in Conan? I am assuming that it does not, as every weak-arm with a warhammer would suddenly be shattering 75% of the weapons in the game...but I wanted to get a general consensus. The rules themselves seem unclear. How is everyone handling this matter?

Hardness and DR are not the same thing. As Murte pointed out, overcomming DR to damage a creature does not nesicarily mean that you damaged the armor's material, only that enough force was transmited to injure the wearer. This can be done with an espically massive weapon (poleaxe, warhammer) a weapon that concentrates all of its force on a small impact zone (battleaxe, Bossonian Longbow) or a weapon that finds a small gap in the armor (finesse attack w/a light weapon). Overcomming hardness however, means that you are damaging the structure of the material itself on a much larger scale. It is the difference between drilling a hole in a wall and knocking the wall down.

Anyways, with the higher base weapon damage in Conan you don't need to penetrate hardness to go smashing up your enemies weapons. A little two handed PA and a nice big greatsword or bill and you will be making scrap metal out of your players weapons in no time.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
so does that mean if I take a 5ft step away from my enemy then run he get a AoO?
 

Bregales

Mongoose
oni no jeremy said:
so does that mean if I take a 5ft step away from my enemy then run he get a AoO?
Hi there, actually, the rules for taking a 5 foot step are in 2 sections in the Combat chapter:
First, on page 171 under Miscellaneous Actions-Take 5-Foot Step it says, "You cannot take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you cannot take a 5-foot step in the same round you move any distance." So, no answers your question.

Note also that it says "You can move 5 feet in any round when you do not perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity unless it is combined with another action in the round." So if you move 5 feet to take a standard actin like an attack or sneak attack roll, or cast a spell or use a skill, then you are eligible for an AoO. There are more detailed rules for spellcasters on page 167 (any spell cast as a free action doesn't provoke an AoO, but a standard action or longer spell does).

I hope this helps. I was always an anti-rules player (I never paid attention to rules) in our dnd group, but being a huge Howard/Conan fan I agreed to GM our campaign, which means I have to try to keep abrest of the rules when the rules experts in my group question me. This was the first point of controversy that came up when we first got the rulesbook, so I made notes of such rules questions to make sure I wouldn't get confused. Everyone's interpretations in this thread are good, and you could use them instead if you want, but I quoted you the literal interpretation I got for this rule.

Hope it helps.
 

Prof.Dogg

Mongoose
I think the 5' step ruled is badly-worded. Basically it should read: The act of taking a 5' step NEVER provokes AoO but any actions performed along with it may per the rules involved for that action.

Can anybody find a ruling otherwise?
 

argo

Mongoose
Prof.Dogg said:
I think the 5' step ruled is badly-worded. Basically it should read: The act of taking a 5' step NEVER provokes AoO but any actions performed along with it may per the rules involved for that action.

Can anybody find a ruling otherwise?

No that is wrong. See the 5-foot step description on page 171. A 5' step does provoke an AoO all by itself unless you do nothing else besides move 5' for that round. (and actually that is not a special property of the 5' step, it is basically the Withdraw action (see p 170) which states that if all you do for the round is move, up to twice your speed, then you do not provoke an AoO for leaving the square you start in. Functionally using your entire round to do nothing by take a 5' step is equivalent to taking the Withdraw action and only moving 5'.)

In Conan you simply treat a 5' step the same as any other kind of movement with respect to drawing AoO's. The only special properties of a 5' step in conan are:
-it is a miscelaneous (free) action; meaning you can 5' step in a round in which you use your move action(s) to do someting other than move.
-you cannot 5' step in a round in which you take any other movement
-you cannot 5' step twice in the same round
-if you do nothing else besides 5' step durring the round you do not draw an AoO (functionally equivalent to using the withdraw action and only moving 5 feet)

Thats it. Hope that helps.
 

Qjedi

Mongoose
Basically then, if an archer finds himself in melee and tried to 5' step back to get to shooting range, he takes damage if he shoot after the 5'step, but he can turn and doublemove away without damage, right?
If that is the case, I like it, because I HATE having archers 5' step back then shoot swordguy who 5' steps to press the attack on his turn then archerguy 5' steps back and shoots continuing the whole stupid cycle...
 

Bregales

Mongoose
Thanks argo, I think that pretty well says it. And I agree with you Qjedi, archers shouldn't be allowed to pull such tricks with impunity, or at least with no sense of their own mortality in such circumstances.

This 5-foot step rule makes for less of a LOTR movie character like Legolas, but rather makes for lethal close quarters interchange, more like you'd expect in real-world situations, (Conan is so widely popular because he always emerges from a battle with a score of wounds, his stories are more real in that sense).
 

argo

Mongoose
Qjedi said:
Basically then, if an archer finds himself in melee and tried to 5' step back to get to shooting range, he takes damage if he shoot after the 5'step, but he can turn and doublemove away without damage, right?

Exactly. But remember that the Withdraw action only prevents you from provoking an AoO for leaving the square you start in. Archer-boy does not take an AoO from the guy he is standing next to when he starts the round but if he runs past another enemy on his way out the door he still provokes an AoO as normal.

Hope that helps.
 

Shonuff

Mongoose
In relation to the new book (Conan AE), I looked up the 5 foot step again in DnD 3.5.

On pg. 144 it states taking a 5 foot step when you do not perform any other movement never provokes an AoO. They give an example of drawing a weapon (move action but not moving), stepping 5 feet, then attacking (standard action).

Under these rules, an archer could be facing a melee fighter one on one and be toe to toe. He could step back 5 feet as a free action and not provoke an AoO because 5 foot steps never provoke AoO. The archer could then draw an arrow as a move action and shoot at the fighter as a standard action.

If the archer took the five foot step to the side, then he would provoke an AoO from the melee fighter when he drew the arrow (move action that is considered retrieving a stored item - which provokes an AoO), but not for taking a 5 foot step.

HOWEVER -Like Argo said clearly above, Conan has changed this. Moving out of a threatened square, even if taking a 5 foot step, provokes an AoO if you do anything else that round.

In Conan AE - With the Valeria example mentioned on another thread (since I do not have the book yet) where she makes a bow attack in the same round she steps 5 feet, I wonder why she did not provoke an AoO? It seems to undo the changes Conan RPG made to AoO.
 

InsomNY

Mongoose
I'm interested to see where this goes, but something needs to be made clear regarding 3.5 rules:
Shonuff said:
The archer could then draw an arrow as a move action and shoot at the fighter as a standard action.

If the archer took the five foot step to the side, then he would provoke an AoO from the melee fighter when he drew the arrow (move action that is considered retrieving a stored item - which provokes an AoO), but not for taking a 5 foot step.
This is a false assumption. Drawing arrows and fitting them to the string is not a move action. It's a free action which may be repeated in the same round as needed. See p. 142 of your PHB for confirmation.

Loading a crossbow is a move action (or a full-round action if it's a heavy crossbow), which is why self bows are preferred by serious archers in D&D – they can make a full attack, whereas crossbows can't without use of the Rapid Reload feat.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled rules discussion. :wink:
 

Shonuff

Mongoose
InsomNY said:
This is a false assumption. Drawing arrows and fitting them to the string is not a move action. It's a free action which may be repeated in the same round as needed. See p. 142 of your PHB for confirmation.

Oh man . . . brain fart. It was right there. It is in the Conan book too. Free action.

I was quickly looking for one move action (non-movement) that would provoke an AoO with a 5 foot step. . . You get the idea.

Thanks
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Shonuff said:
In Conan AE - With the Valeria example mentioned on another thread (since I do not have the book yet) where she makes a bow attack in the same round she steps 5 feet, I wonder why she did not provoke an AoO? It seems to undo the changes Conan RPG made to AoO.


This is just a drawing in the book, not a rules examle, where this action seems to be happening. It could just as easily depict the spli-second right after the attack of opportunity occured but missed, and then her shot is made normally. Ignore that asn an example. Argo's explanation is dead on. AoOs are prolific in Conan and should be - this is realnastydiry combat as opposed to D&Ds happyhuggyhero combat where characters are practically super heroes.

:wink:
 

Shonuff

Mongoose
Sounds good to me too. I also liked Argo's clear explanation - that's why I thought I even remembered that as being an official answer from Mongoose.

As for the drawing the arrow goof in my previous post, that was a hang over from another rules discussion regarding Decipher's Lord the Rings game and Quick Draw.

Speaking of Conan's nasty combat and Conan AE, what was decided about feinting in combat? Total loss of all defences or just a penalty?

How about sneak attacks and the feint? Still a no?


I got no answer for those on another thread.
 
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