2nd Ed its great :D : however in an ideal world.......

[Da Boss]

Well I really enjoy 2nd ed - lots of great things - however now we have had some time, a few tournaments etc and mention has been made by a number of people - including Matt of a annual "update" book perhaps ideas for this may be appreciated (or not :lol: )

To my mind this falls into two categories - tweeks and clarifications.

My thoughts: - doubtless not all will agree

Clarifications

Skin Dancing - the rule is vague and has many confusing aspects - incuding if AF /AAF works or not and what happens if you skin dance a ship that has not already moved. (I would prefer I became a Special order)

Base contact - a ruling on how many breeching pods / suicide fighters can hit a ship (Again I would go for a straight rule of 6)

Fleet carrier and Bought ships - what can recover and what can't

Stealth - the thread on the rulesmasters board gave me a headache a nice concise explanation / table on this would be much appreciated.

Recon Run - a lot more clarification as to how the stealth and scanning interact - do you need to make more than one Stealth role if you both scan and shoot a ship. You get no bonuses to break stealth if the scanning takes place in the move phase (can't get scan rolls ect) or does it take place in the attack phase? Does scanning a ship count as breaking Stealth?

Tweeks

The Gaim lots discussed elsewhere (I would prefer the emines to go shorter range and F arc, gain some SR guns, and loose all the advanced traits - Flight computer and Advanced antifighter)

Shadow Fighters - oh just please make them worthwhile - a few more fighters a wing, more range in guns - anything to try and make them worth it. (I'd love it to be my versions but hey )

Shadow Stalker - a bit weak (couple more damage points and a 4AD beam perhaps)[/i]

Demos - maybe too good compared to the Vorchan (I would suggest drop the Ion cannons to 8AD)

Octurion - not quite good enough I feel (give it either same range beams as the Sullust - 24" or a interceptor or 2)

G'Quan - a bit weak (make its beam 6AD)

G'Vahn may be a little strong? (perhaps make the energy mine a normal SL one but not sure here)

Bimith - apparently very weak but not played myself (give a extra 45 degree turn and loose lumbering)

Fireraptor - Well it fits the fluff - its dire

Raiders - I still think Triggy's scavanged ships would be a great additon to this fleet ............

Vorlons and Shadows - two more ships to fill in some gaps is, i feel not too much to ask - I would go for a Raid level Vorlon ship (which I believe is coming from Matt in S=P?) and a Carrier or Scout for V and a Skirmish and battle ship for the Shadows (no news on anything for them) - new models woud be great then - i'd buy them!
Let the Vorlons use Intensify Defensive fire power SA

Dilgar - make their fighters non inteceptable and non recoverable - consistant with the Gaim ones.

 

[Ripple]

Largely agree...

Ripple

 

[tschuma]

Great work, now let's see what Mongoose has to say!

 

[akenatum]

i would be happy for them to say base contact just means contct with the stem myself, but a fixed number could also work...

also if a fixed number i'm assuming of course that say 6 is the number if you have 3 boarding pods on then only 3 fightes can suicide to it...

Limit skin dancing to the ammount you can get in base contact see above...

 

[darknight]

please, please more vorlons, (new good casts as well)

 

[B_Steele]

Here are my OPINIONS. These are in no way official rulings, and only if Matthew asked me to redesign some of ACTA would they become so.

Skin Dancing - the rule is vague and has many confusing aspects - incuding if AF /AAF works or not and what happens if you skin dance a ship that has not already moved.

Agreed. I think it would be better served as a way for fighters to get past AF and shots to get passed interceptors...but not much else.

Base contact - a ruling on how many breeching pods / suicide fighters can hit a ship

This would be eliminated by standardised base sizes, but would tick off all of the old Fleet Action model and counters players...but we already know my stance on that.

Fleet carrier and Bought ships - what can recover and what can't

I thought I/we answered that in the Rulesmasters already?

Stealth - the thread on the rulesmasters board gave me a headache a nice concise explanation / table on this would be much appreciated.

Although I don't think it is as confusing as some people are making it out to be, an order of how modifiers are applied might be useful.

Recon Run - a lot more clarification as to how the stealth and scanning interact - do you need to make more than one Stealth role if you both scan and shoot a ship. You get no bonuses to break stealth if the scanning takes place in the move phase (can't get scan rolls ect) or does it take place in the attack phase? Does scanning a ship count as breaking Stealth?

Wow. I would say Stealth should simply not be involved with the Scan at all...makes things WAY easier.

The Gaim lots discussed elsewhere

Fleet composition rules are what get the Gaim going. I feel that the ships themselves are not the problem, but how the fleets are put together. The number of Queens should be limited (1 for every 2 non-queen) and there should never be more than 4 of any given ship in a fleet...in my opinion.

Shadow Fighters - oh just please make them worthwhile - a few more fighters a wing, more range in guns - anything to try and make them worth it.

I actually don't think they are a problem. The Shadows have to have a weakness, as Matthew has discussed. If anything, I think that the Shields trait should protect against Anti-Fighter - but not because of the Shadow ships, because it simply makes sense.

Shadow Stalker

This I disagree with, I think the Stalker is just fine (having gotten my butt kicked by the shadows before.

Demos - maybe too good compared to the Vorchan

Perhaps, but I have not seen it as a problem in my neck of the woods.

Octurion - not quite good enough I feel

Wholeheartedly disagree. Our local Centauri player uses one regularly and it is a beast when played and supported properly.

G'Quan - a bit weak

Again, disagree. It is a good ship, just not over the top.

G'Vahn may be a little strong?

Disagree as well. It is a tough ship, but it has an advanced In Service Date and has weak secondaries to the sides - jump in on the damn thing and deal with it that way.

Bimith - apparently very weak but not played myself

This thing is as tough as nails for a Raid. It has been my game winner several times, I don't know what people are complaining about.

Fireraptor - Well it fits the fluff - its dire

???

Raiders - I still think Triggy's scavanged ships would be a great additon to this fleet ............

???

Vorlons and Shadows - two more ships to fill in some gaps is, i feel not too much to ask

There is another book coming...maybe I can sweet-talk Matthew into them.

Let the Vorlons use Intensify Defensive fire power SA

Do you honestly think that is necessary, with all of their AAF?

Dilgar - make their fighters non inteceptable and non recoverable - consistant with the Gaim ones.

Wholeheartedly agree.

-Bry
[/quote]

 

[Da Boss]

Hey Bry thanks for that

Couple of responses

the Recon Run and Stealth problem came up at ECW and caused a bit of confusion as Matt ruled you do need to break stealth - hence my questions............

re Fleet carrier - as I read it Matt had chopped and changed a couple of times and last ruling was subject to "what do you think?"

We can agree on much and not at all on some things (shadow fighters!)

 

[Iain McGhee]

Base Contact: I'd change it to stem contact for breachers and kamikazes (which is how I thought it was supposed to work now)

Gaim: I'd limit the Queens to 1 at Patrol, 2 max at Skirmish etc.

 

[H]

Did I just read that the G'Quan is a good ship? hahhahahahahha, hehehehhehehhe, hohohoohohohoohohoohoh eep need to breath.

sorry.. Everyone can have an opinion ;-)

 

[katadder]

even worse, the bimith got called a tough ship, its far far worse than the 1e bimith. same damage (even if some is regenerating shields), less interceptors, less AD and worst of all one turn and lumbering.

problem with a g'vrahn, its side arc is almost as bad as a warlocks, but better than say a vorlon light cruiser however it turns quicker than the warlock and will soon bring that front arc back into play again. the g'vrahn does need some tweaking. advanced ISD has nothing to do with it as I would say 90% (possibly more) of players dont use ISDs

 

[eldiablito]

Da Boss has it on almost every point.

The only thing that needs some real work is the Gaim. That is one fleet that needs some retooling.

Baring the minor (and one major) issues, this is one great game. I cannot tell you of how many other fun games I have played where there were even more problems.

 

[Prophaniti]

Don't forget exiting hyperspace. There is some very confusing stuff regarding what ships can do. i.e. whether a JE or AJE opens the jump point and what exiting ships can do if they have a JE, AJE or no jump engine at all.

 

[Karhedron]

Jumping in with my tuppence worth.

Fleet composition rules are what get the Gaim going. I feel that the ships themselves are not the problem, but how the fleets are put together. The number of Queens should be limited (1 for every 2 non-queen) and there should never be more than 4 of any given ship in a fleet...in my opinion.

I have to say that I think the Gaim fleet is not a good concept in its current form. Long range turreted weapons are always going to be a problem in large numbers as it essentially frees a fleet from the need to manouvre. The Gaim can run away and still fire at full effect. Any races that rely on manouvrability suffer a big hit against Gaim.

Secondly, Emines in large numbers are a fleet breaker. They negate stealth, interceptors and dodge. Any race which relies on the above again takes a big hit against Gaim. The lack of criticals is not such an issue when combined with the range and turret arc. The Gaim can sit back afford to to whittle the enemy down in attrition. This does not make for an entertaining game.

Lastly the kamikaze fighters. They are strong but on their own they are OK. The problem is that the Emines give the Gaim the ability to completely wipe out enemy fighters meaning that it is impossible to mount a feasible defense against them. A few races may have enough AF/AAF to stand a chance but otherwise you simply have to accept that you will be hit by a wave of crewed missiles and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. I have a problem with any tactic that does not have a feasible counter. Almost every other form of special attack in the game can be countered in some fashion but there is no defense against those crewed missiles because your fighters will be wiped from the sky on every turn.

I don't think that tweaking things like the Queens rule is going to fix the Gaim. The concept is broken because they have no feasible counter and every game just becomes a battle of attrition. Taking the skill out of the game is never a good idea.

I think the Gaim should be reworked as a short-ranged boarding-oriented fleet. Lots of short ranged lasers on tough hulls. Make them brawlers who rely on getting in close and launching vicous boarding actions. Better fits the fluff, fills a niche that is not yet occupied and make for a more interesting fleet to play and fight against.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Fighter VPs - Lets get patrol level VP from destroying a wing's worth of independent fighters. I don't know why we have the 1 flight = 1VP system, and I can only guess that it was to try and keep things simple. We're big boys and girls though, we can cope with the idea that destroying 10 Aurora flights should net us the same VP as destroying 2 patrol level ships.

Raiders - Now, I know that Raiders are meant to be underpowered to a degree, but with the way they work with the rules at the moment, most of the time there's just no point to even unpacking them. A big part of this seems to be the combination of their reliance on Double Vs, only being able to take Double Vs as independent wings, and the above mess with fighter VPs. In the RPG it says that Strike Carriers can carry Double Vs, so why not carry this over to ACTA and allow them to upgrade their Delta Vs to Double Vs in the same way as with V2s?

 

[GhostRecon]

On Shadow Fighters -- Since they're the only Fighters with Shields, why not just add in a race-specific exception where the Shadow Fighter's shields allow it to survive 1 hit in against AF? So you need to hit it twice with Anti-Fighter in order to kill it.

They're still weak to dogfight, but at least now they can survive attacking a capital ship reasonably better than they can now. Might that be a tenable solution?

And on the rest of the points, I agree generally, though I disagree about the G'vrahn and the Octurion.

Don't reduce the G'vrahn just because the G'quonth isn't even a consideration and the Bin'Tak is laughably slow and poor to maneuver compared to the G'vrahn. Its secondaries are better, but it's so slow and they're so short-ranged that most players can easily avoid them, so what's the point? Its front firepower is formidable, but being lumbering and speed 5 essentially dooms it to being outmaneuvered. Even if you nerf the G'vrahn, the G'vrahn is still a better choice because its more maneuverable. Its the only War/Battle/Armageddon choice in the Narn fleet with any maneuverability, and claims to the contrary, lumbering and boresight are sizable limitations, and given an alternative players will almost always chose the more maneuverable vessel. This applies to any race. What is the better ship? The Warlock, or the Omega Command Cruiser? They're arguably close, but the Warlock, in most player's opinions, wins out because its more maneuverable, which makes up for the 2AD loss in beam weapons (TD ain't bad either).

In a comparison between two ships with boresighted beam shots as their primary damage dealing weapon system, the ship with the most turns that is non-lumbering will win out because it will have a better chance of getting boresight. The only time lumbering isn't a more noticeable limitation as far is boresight is concerned is if you deploy the boresighted ship in what is essentially the corner of the battlespace, where its 1x45L turn allows it to "see" the whole battlespace with its 90 degree turn arc. And even then, you better pray the enemy doesn't jump behind you. In a comparison between the Omega and Marathon, the Marathon is much more flexible, and would not have the same difficulties as the Omega in a far greater range of situations. In the example above, the Omega would have a 90 "spotlight" arc where it could boresight, to the Marathon's 180 arc. And if the enemy tries to jump in behind you, by the time they're on the board the Marathon could have heeled 180 degrees, while the Omega is still struggling to get past 90 degrees (And "Come About" works both ways, and as such is ignored for this analysis).

Give the Bin'Tak 12 inch range on its secondaries (And the same with the Ka'Bin'Tak), increase the range on the G'quonth's secondaries to 10 inches, increase the Bin'Tak's boresight beam by 5/10 inches (to 30/35), along with SL E-mines on the Bin'Tak (So all three War-level choices have it), both the Bin'Tak and the G'quonth could be a viable choice to the G'vrahn as is.

 

[Frankvas]

I think the Abbai need some work. They seem to be a very poor choice in every priority except for Armageddon, as they share the great Brakiri ship. Their fighters are beyond crappy, I mean, what is their point? They fill no role.

Frank V.

 

[inq101]

Give the Bin'Tak 10" range medium pulse cannons and 100 damage.

Theres a dozen or so ships/fleets in dire need of help. G'Quan, Fireraptor, the Abbai to name a few.
G'Quan, drop 50% off all secondary weapons. Double the AD of the main beams (look at what one does to the Shadow ship and tell me it doesn't deserve it).
Fireraptor. Heavy particle cannon, more damage and crew, another flight of Sky Serpents, dodge 6+
Abbai. Many more interceptors.

The Gaim. I'm not sure what they need but they do need something. My suggestions include take at least 1 bodyguard for each Queen ship or make the e-mines slow loading.

G'Vrahn. I feel it's OK except it's a little too tough compared to the Bin'Tak. Loose 5 damage and crew and it should be fine.

Tom

 

[greenboy]

I would like to see a longer ranged weapon on the octurion i can live with out one on the primus but the octurion is such a large investment that not doing any thing for 2 to 3 turns just seems a waste especially when other ships in the fleet hat lower levels have longer ranges

 

[Jetbaker]

I would like to see a change in the way Hyperspace Mastery works with Shadows. Granted its probably not used much in most games but being able to jump in but not out goes against what was seen in the show. Also, other races can do both why not the Shadows. I would also like to see the battle level shadow ship get some more hitpoints. A raid level ship but given 3AD TD P B is not worth going to battle level. The drazi need some work as well there ships just dont seem to be good.

 

[Lone Gunman]

Here are some of my thoughts:

Quote:
Shadow Fighters - oh just please make them worthwhile - a few more fighters a wing, more range in guns - anything to try and make them worth it.


I actually don't think they are a problem. The Shadows have to have a weakness, as Matthew has discussed. If anything, I think that the Shields trait should protect against Anti-Fighter - but not because of the Shadow ships, because it simply makes sense.

The Shadows already have a weakness. They are Ancient, i.e. they have fewer ships than any other race. the Shadow Fighter is one of the worst fighters out there and its not only a weakness but can also proof the complete downfall of a shadow fleet when swarmed with heavy fighters/bombers against which you can do nothing. Give them more per wing , dogfight +1 and let their shields work against af.

Quote:
Shadow Stalker

This I disagree with, I think the Stalker is just fine (having gotten my butt kicked by the shadows before.

Yeah, this may happen but only on a good beam roll. Due to 2nd Ed. rules you can no longer rely on them. The Stalker either needs more beams or beams have to be more reliable as in 1st ed. Also, it costs double the points of a scout and has the same stats but looses stealth. Not a good trade imo.

Quote:
Demos - maybe too good compared to the Vorchan
Perhaps, but I have not seen it as a problem in my neck of the woods.

Be glad of that. The Demos is almost as good as many raid pl ships. Long range precise torps will ruin you day and then it closes blast doors and swoops in with Ion Cannons blasting. With its intereceptor some of your non beam shots will not hit and all beams and other hits can be negated on 5+. It has to be nerfed.

Octurion - not quite good enough I feel
Wholeheartedly disagree. Our local Centauri player uses one regularly and it is a beast when played and supported properly.

The right way to support an Octurion is to leave it in the space dock. It misses something most war level ships have. Long range punch. Its beam only reaches 18" and the other guns only 12". That's too short, not to mention that I can get 2 Sulust and 2 Elutarion for the price of one Octuiron which then are also much better. But thats a problem of the pl-system.

Quote:
G'Quan - a bit weak
Again, disagree. It is a good ship, just not over the top.

The G'Quan has only 4 AD of beams, even the Omega destroyer (although also not a good choice at all) can boost 6. And the one shot e-mine is a nuisance more than a real weapon. Also its secondaries, altought numerous etc., rarely come to use. And the variants are not much better. Give them some more range and he would be decent.

Quote:
G'Vahn may be a little strong?
Disagree as well. It is a tough ship, but it has an advanced In Service Date and has weak secondaries to the sides - jump in on the damn thing and deal with it that way.

Not every game is played with reserves in Hyperspace and even then I woudl prevere a G'Vrahn to any other Battle or War choice of the Narn as it boast intereceptors, many fighters, sl emines, very good forward fire power, no lumbering and 2 turns per turn. So there is no reason to either take a lumbering Bin'Tak or G'Quan variant when the other choice is not lumbering and has the same fire power and is much more manouverable.

Quote:
Bimith - apparently very weak but not played myself

This thing is as tough as nails for a Raid. It has been my game winner several times, I don't know what people are complaining about.

As someone who really tried to play Abbai I disagree wholeheartly. The Abbai as a race are a joke. They have shields, yes. Do the regenerate? Not really good. Even the Lakara Cruiser, discribed as heavily shielded, only boasts 12/2 shields. When they are gone every hit from a secondary batterie will lower the shields and then beams and other heavy ordonance will cripple the abbai ship, may it be Lakara, Bimith or Milani.

What''s so thought about them? Why should the Bimith be a game winner?
Your opponent will let him pass 10" away as his weapons then cannot shoot and it will not be able to fire a 2nd time.

The Bimith and other Abbai ships are slow (9 for the Milani, 8 for the Bimith and 6 for the Lakara) and have short ranges. 15" on the beams and 8" on the Quad arrays. The Abbai will rarely shoot with this in any engagement as many enemys would simply stay out of your firering range. Heck, even Centauri Ion Cannons have 12" range and better speed. The Abbai may be pacifists, but with their current ships they would have been wiped from the galaxy a long time ago.

Also, the fighters are even worse than shadows. They are many of them but they are slow,cannot act as escorts due to the weak trait of their weapons and they cannot engage enemy fighters as they are even slower than most heavy fighters/bombers. Wouldn't the Milani also be a good ship on itself I would ignore them.

The Abbai are presently my least played fleet as they really don't have chance to win. They are mostly out gunned and out ranged in any engagement unless I plan on swaming my opponent with Tiracas.

Fireraptor - Well it fits the fluff - its dire

???

The Fire Raptor has not much more firepower than a Stormfalcon. Give him more and it will be fine.

Some things I also want to see change are:

Cronus Give it some more pulse cannons 6 to the front and rear and 8 to the sides should be enough to make it a decent ship.

Ochlavita Same thing here. 2 to 3 more dice of Bolter to the front will work wonders.

Tagrath This ship is presently a beast at raid levell. Cut some AD of its torpedos and Bolters, make it 2" slower and it will be fine an on par with the Omelos.

Omega Give him some more AD with its pulse cannons, espacially to the front or give them ap and dd.

Also, get rid of the Lumbering trait. Ships with one turn are already restricted enought. To make them even worse is not necessary.