[2300AD] Missing nation in the book..

[Alexander1968]

Hello! I got a couple of days ago the new 2300AD book and I was very satisfied. I got already the 2320AD book and I own everything produced by GDW and 3W, but I'm very happy to have Mongoose Publishing book too. There is just one thing that disappoints me a little: in the descriptions of various 'important' nations in the 2300AD universe (tier 1, 2, 3 and 4) mine is missing. Mine, as you could guess, is Italy 8)

I can understand that 2300AD is a SF RPG and so everything may happen, I was just a bit sad because Colin (that, let me repeat it again, did a great job) did not insert Italy as, at least, a Tier 3 nation as GDW did with an old Challenge article. I think that Colin used current perceived importance of various countries to estimate their position in the XXIII century. Italy is not exactly in the best shape at the moment, but it has nonetheless 60 million people, a G7 economy, it's a founding member of the EU, a founding member of ESA... but alas no place for us :roll:

Of course there is no problem in 'correcting' that for gaming. I'm currently gamemastering a campaign with Italian 8) Army characters pinned in Dunkelheim and fighting the Kafer invaders along the local resistance. It's fun and me and and the players really appreciate a setting where Italy has the place GDW granted it in the Challenge article (no, we did not replace France with Italy as a global superpower... :wink: ).

I wonder if anything will change in future books but please do not see this a complain, 2300AD is a fine game and I'll buy everything Mongoose will print (I have big hopes for French Arm Adventures because GDW did such a bad job in having great ideas under developed and half baked...). Consider it a little plea for some bit of attention.

Thanks

- Alessandro

 

[rust]

At least Italy is in very good company: Albania, Austrovenia, Bulgaria,
Catalonia, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Netherlands,
Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Spain and Switzerland ... :wink:

 

[kafka]

Weren't those countries counted under the rubric of the Superstate of Europe in the Mongoose rules? Separate but unified....
Page 27-28

Europe C899879-C 4 0
Languages: Spanish, Italian, Greek, German
Major Cities: Madrid (5.1 million), Athens (4.2 million), Rome
(3.5 million)
Currency: Various
Europe is something of an anomaly. Most of the nations are Tier
4 and dominated by either France or Germany, yet they have
lifestyles more in keeping with that enjoyed by Tier 3 or even Tier
2 nations. Europe is wealthy and these nations maintain their
wealth largely by not getting involved in colonisation endeavours.
However, this cuts them off from the resources that off-world
colonies can make available and so they are trapped. Most are
not willing to accept the temporary drop in their standard of living
that would be required to settle another world but by not doing
so, they are unable to advance that standard of living and are
actually facing a slow decline as resources get harder to find and
28
more expensive to purchase. A few countries have participated
in joint-venture colonies, the most notable of which was the
Bavarian colony of Garten, now Freihafen, on Tirane.

Nations of Europe: These nations comprise the rest of Europe
and have not been detailed: Albania, Austrovenia, Bulgaria,
Catalonia, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Hungary, Italy,
Latvia, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Spain
and Switzerland.

 

[Alexander1968]

At least Italy is in very good company: Albania, Austrovenia, Bulgaria,
Catalonia, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Netherlands,
Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Spain and Switzerland ... :wink:

Catalonia is a part of Spain and anyway no countries on that list comes close to Italy in terms of importance... :roll:

 

[rust]

... no countries on that list comes close to Italy in terms of importance... :roll:

It depends on your definition of "importance". For example, as
a friend of excellent cheese I would vote for the Netherlands or
Switzerland, and as a friend of good beer I would be tempted
to vote for Czechoslovakia ... 8)

 

[Alexander1968]

... no countries on that list comes close to Italy in terms of importance... :roll:

It depends on your definition of "importance". For example, as
a friend of excellent cheese I would vote for the Netherlands or
Switzerland, and as a friend of good beer I would be tempted
to vote for Czechoslovakia ... 8)

Very funny :mrgreen: but it's not an answer to my point. Nothing justifies the exclusion of a G7 country from the listing, especially if I see the countries that deserved a description on their own...

 

[rust]

I see your point and agree, but I also see that the entire background history of 2300 AD was
influenced far more by the limited knowledge of the original authors than by any real world
geopolitics. For example, the role of Bavaria (where I am from) in the game's background hi-
story is simply ridiculous (if you can believe it, I can sell you Malta as a nuclear superpower,
too).

I suspect that the random events of the Great Game (used to develop the history), together
with the fact that the players of that game obviously used a map of the world in the early
19th century for their game, led to the strange result - in the case of Italy probably because
Italy did not yet exist as a unified state at the point in time depicted by the map.

In the case of Germany I sometimes wish the authors would have ignored it, so I would not
have to explain to the players why there are states like Hanover and Westphalia in the game's
history, when in the real world a state Westphalia existed only for a very short time - and Ha-
nover was its capital city ...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

If you want to make Italy more important in your game, then do so.

Give them a couple colonies within the French Arm (probably on shared worlds) and go for it!

 

[Elrick]

Challenge magazine 42 had an article about Italy in 2300AD written by Mark Galeotti. That's for the GDW version of the game, but there shouldn't be a lot of system-specific rules in it.

You can buy a copy at DrivethruRPG: http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=87212&filters=0_0_44242_0_0

 

[kafka]

I see your point and agree, but I also see that the entire background history of 2300 AD was
influenced far more by the limited knowledge of the original authors than by any real world
geopolitics. For example, the role of Bavaria (where I am from) in the game's background hi-
story is simply ridiculous (if you can believe it, I can sell you Malta as a nuclear superpower,
too).

I suspect that the random events of the Great Game (used to develop the history), together
with the fact that the players of that game obviously used a map of the world in the early
19th century for their game, led to the strange result - in the case of Italy probably because
Italy did not yet exist as a unified state at the point in time depicted by the map.

In the case of Germany I sometimes wish the authors would have ignored it, so I would not
have to explain to the players why there are states like Hanover and Westphalia in the game's
history, when in the real world a state Westphalia existed only for a very short time - and Ha-
nover was its capital city ...

I think you are absolutely correct there. The factor, of course, in their decision was out of the feudalism that arose after the Twilight War - which nations would have had the chutzpa to get up and change the world. The survey of the world circa 1982 (when at least the game was being thought up) would necessitate France (as at that time French leadership over the EEC was being solidified - with the growing European architecture taking on distinctly French overtones) combined with elements within GDW being Francophiles.

So, I think, rather than looking forward, they looked always backward at which states seemed to have the durability - hence Bavaria as a choice even if it defies even the logic of the time that game was created. But, the point was to have a fragmented Germany. And, in the FRG in 1982 - only Bavaria in 1982 seemed to possess a separate identity to outsiders looking in. Not consistent with what is reality but perceptions sometimes are not.

2300AD, like, Twilight grew out of their wargames Third World War. Myself, I take the approach that the background is important but not as determinant with the decline of nationalism - nation-states merely take on cultural characteristics. Hence, all you Bavarians just go around in leatherhosen in your L5 Colonies - ok, on the more serious side - my 2300AD resemble Star*Cops more than what GDW wrote...

 

[Strithe]

Keep in mind that the nation tiers seem to have mainly to do with interstellar presence, both in therms of colonies & militaries. Also, keep in mind that by 2300 things like "G7" and and "United Nations" are quaint historical footnotes just like the League of Nations or the Council of Trent are today.

That being said, I tend to play certain things very differently in my 2300ad universe. For one thing, many of the "forgotten" nations are rolled into various trade & political alliances (similar to the EU & NAFTA). Italy, for instance, has an agreement with France (as does Catalonia). So, a person with "French" citizenship actually could just as easily be from France or Catalonia or a variety of other European nations as well as the French mainland or "Empire."

Some of the smaller nations mentioned in the book such as Flanders or Palestine are also "swallowed up" in this way: Flanders & Austrovenia are German satellites, while Palestine is an Arabian satellite. There are still separate polities but travel & trade is much freer & easier between satellite nations than it is between the listed national co-operations. It also allows for an easier explanation of how someone from a non-interstellar nation got into space.

The real wild-cards for interstellar nations in my 2300 universe are the major backers of the Orbital Quarantine: Iran, Russia, and the Indian States. They're not only a major source of OQC's funding, but by treaty provide all of the crews for the OQC's fleet. Since they effectively control trade to & from Earth's surface, their citizens pretty much have carte blanche to travel or settle among any of the colony worlds they want.

In general, nationality doesn't have as much to do with actual ethnicity as it does today.

Other things I've eliminated or down-played are the German Reunification & the French Empire. The recent war with France wasn't over German unification so much as a re-alignment of trade & power alliances in the wake of growing friction between the two former European allies. The straw that broke the camel's back was the heavy-handed way France dragged Germany into committing to help in the Central Asian War.

France, in my version, isn't explicitly an Empire. However, Ruffin's faction has effectively instituted a one-party state and many of France's detractors DO refer to the French alliance as an Empire. In particular, German propaganda only refers to France's president as "Bonaparte."

However, most of the Earth geopolitics matter much less out in the Frontier. Except for recent transplants, most colonists think of themselves first as Dunkelheimers or Kingslanders than the do Germans (or Austrovenians or Poles) or Australians. The Earth governments are more a question of where one's taxes go, the local language (slowly drifting out of synch with the Earth version), and what Navy or Marine units you call on to help with pirates, terrorists, or squashing those bastards from the other colony who won't respect your fishing rights.

 

[Treebore]

Italy is covered, just not in detail, because in this setting they are a non player since they refuse to invest in colonization. Its obviously simple to change that for a given GM, but that is how the default is set up. Otherwise they appear to be categorized as a Tier 4.