10 Sagittarius Fleet - at Mongoose Towers

MongooseMatt

Administrator
Staff member
Hi guys,

Following the discussions on these forums, I grabbed Nick (our resident demo guy) and we tried out the ten Sagittarius fleet.

To match this, I gave 5 White Stars a whirl, figuring I could keep him off balance at least part of the time, and trust to dodges. We played tourney rules, A Call to Arms scenario, with a small planet and an asteroid field.

Some thoughts, if not conclusions;

1. His rolls for criticals were below par, as were my dodges and beam rolls.

2. Terrain maketh the game, even in space - the odd floating rock can spare you a first turn drubbing, and give battered ships breathing space (this would be particularly effective with a Shadow fleet).

3. But it cannot save two Sagittarius (two Sagittari?) from incoming jump points.

4. With ten Sagittarius, you will always be in the field of fire for missiles, wherever you go.

5. But you can put the fleet off balance if you are agile enough, vastly reducing the incoming fire. . .

6. . . . so long as you keep your fleet together and do not spread out.

7. The upgunned forward arc was used twice in this game. Most shots came from the rear and sides.

8. You have to love a planet that a White Star can orbit in a single turn, allowing it to Concentrate All Firepower on a single Sagittarius twice in as row (didn't survive).

End result? The Sagittarius fleet _did_ win. However, it was close enough that it could have swung either way on the dice. One White Star limped home, while only three Sagittarius were left, one badly damaged, one almost pristine.

What was interesting was that the White Stars kept pace, point for point, right up to the end, until both their Damage points and my dice ran out of steam.

Not going to make any judgements from one game and we are more prone to listen to the thoughts of our players than simply go by our own battles so, if after everyone has Armageddon people still want a change, we'll give it some serious thought.

However, 5 White Stars (Armageddon stats) are a perfectly reasonable tournament fleet, so I believe there are ways and means out there. Next time, I'll try a boarding fleet!

My main thought? I don't think people are using planets and asteroids as much as they should.

Warning: Into the Fire II will have terrain on almost every table!!!
 
Nice review,

5 White Stars is of course a reasonable tournament fleet but their TD, SPA, Beam rips trough the hull 5 without interferance of the interceptors. Not all fleets have that luxury. + White stars are very fast and come within firing range of the saggi fleet in turn 1. This is also and advantage some fleets do not have.

I would sugest you try to take the 10 saggi fleet on with a narn or a League of non-Aligned Worlds fleet.

Yust my two cents, and I am an EA player 8)
 
Matt, agree with your point about terrain and that probably not enough players use it and yes it can maketh the game.

But Whitestars with Dodge & Adaptive Armour and their maneouverability are probably not the best selection to see how broken a 10 Sag fleet is.

I dont mind the new Sag (Obviously as an EA player) but then I wouldnt field 10 of them.

of course there will always be people who bitch about things, overpowered Sags, Gross Ka'tans/Ka'tocs, panse Vorchans etc etc thats just life, and if I get ganked by an uber fleet on 16th well ce la vie.
 
msprange said:
My main thought? I don't think people are using planets and asteroids as much as they should.

Warning: Into the Fire II will have terrain on almost every table!!!

Appreciate you taking the time to look at this Matt - and I think you've got a point there...terrain isn't used that often, I think, for three main reasons.

1. Call to Arms is the most common scenario - as you know, it uses no terrain unless both players agree (unless this has changed) and I've found that to be rare. This is probably the biggest reason.

2. When terrain is generated randomly, it still isn't very likely (6 on a d6). I've played several "random" terrain games with no or almost irrelevant terrain. (e.g. A dust cloud in one corner of the board).

3. General apathy (the dreaded enemy) or lack of preparation time often means that players just don't have the models to represent asteroids, dust clouds, planets etc.

Now I for one love terrain, it really balances races like the Shadows, even using the OLD SFoS stats - and would like to see terrain as a more common occurence in games. I genuinely believe it is a great balancing factor (in this case the White Stars speed and maneuverability being used to good effect) and promotes tactical and enjoyable play.

Unfortunately my opponents would tell me, I would say that as I tend to play Shadows....;)

I would be happy with the Saggitarius where it is if the standard scenarios allowed EITHER player to opt for randomly generated terrain...in fact that would be great regardless of stats!

Also - some players have mentioned this before, offering a range of space models (asteroids, space hulks, cool looking gas clouds) would be cool. Yes of course its fun to make your own, our group has some excellent terrain (courtesy of Reaverman), and you could always find some pretty graphic on the internet and print for "counter" versions of terrain but it would be cool to walk into my FLGS and pick up a 6-pack of pre-painted asteroids :)
 
The environment totally favoured the White Stars. Scenery including a planet centrally enough to be used for slingshots, 2 WS can use AJP bombs but the Sag fleet is unlikely to bomb in return (std JP), and a single-damage opponent (rounding down rules for adaptive armour kick in). Even then, the Sag's won, it was close but when all factors are totally in the WS favour and they STILL lose, there is a problem IMO.
 
Thanks for having a trial Matt :)
Might I suggest trying a game at some stage that doesn't involve Whitestars, or Drakh raiders. Narn, centauri, another EA force, very different kettle of fish :)

Man you have a fun job.. ok guys just going to play ACTA, it's for work! sheesh!
 
Burger said:
The environment totally favoured the White Stars. Scenery including a planet centrally enough to be used for slingshots, 2 WS can use AJP bombs but the Sag fleet is unlikely to bomb in return (std JP), and a single-damage opponent (rounding down rules for adaptive armour kick in). Even then, the Sag's won, it was close but when all factors are totally in the WS favour and they STILL lose, there is a problem IMO.

A few points here;

1. The White Stars were not the only ones slingshotting :)

2. Thinking about the jump points, I believe the Sagittarius fleet _should_ use them. It gets a couple of ships on the back line, ensuring a better crossfire effect as the enemy tries to close down fire arcs.

Also, you made a point about massed Sagittarius squadrons earlier - I am not convinced. Yes, they can mass their firepower but they also get hammered in movement with the initiative sequence. If Nick had used squadrons, I would have run rings round him.

For my part, I am not moving one way or the other (I'm the guy that still thinks the White Stars in the first CTA are correct!), so I am happy to be swayed. . .
 
hiffano said:
Thanks for having a trial Matt :)
Might I suggest trying a game at some stage that doesn't involve Whitestars, or Drakh raiders. Narn, centauri, another EA force, very different kettle of fish :)

My first thought here is an Interceptor heavy EA force - anyone given that a whirl?

hiffano said:
Man you have a fun job.. ok guys just going to play ACTA, it's for work! sheesh!

Right now, there is a game of SST Evo going on, the Forth Berekose laying into a bunch of Exosuited MI. There are worse things in the world :)
 
Hi,
good to see you are that involved with the game and listen closly to player feedback.

Also, why the pirate pics?

Gazza
 
big-gazza said:
Hi,
good to see you are that involved with the game and listen closly to player feedback.

Also, why the pirate pics?

Gazza
It's national speak like a pirate day this month, think it's the 19th.
 
big-gazza said:
Also, why the pirate pics?
There be a thread (4th from the top I think!) that be explaining it...
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21083
 
msprange said:
hiffano said:
Thanks for having a trial Matt :)
Might I suggest trying a game at some stage that doesn't involve Whitestars, or Drakh raiders. Narn, centauri, another EA force, very different kettle of fish :)

My first thought here is an Interceptor heavy EA force - anyone given that a whirl?

I used an Omega, Nova, Chronos and 2 Olympii against a 10 saggi fleet and got powned badly. the interceptors helped a little, but not enough.
 
Okay, you chaps have got brains going here at Mongoose Towers :)

We have started looking at other one ship fleets, not to cheese out, but to find a common starting point in fighting such a fleet. Once you have 2 or 3 ship designs that work, you can start doing combinations to get a better and more realistic looking fleet.

Anyway, we started mulling over EA fleets, heavy on Interceptors. The problem here is that Sagittarius also have Interceptors, so an opposing EA fleet has to have the required Interceptor batteries (with just some casual calculations, we figure you need a minimum of Interceptors 2 to give reasonable protection, and Interceptors 3 is the sweet point).

At first glance, the Artemis seems a good bet. Fast and agile, it should be able to keep part of the enemy fleet off balance, plus it has the railgun batteries. However, they can be intercepted as easily as the Artemis intercepts missiles, so no go really.

Someone joked about a five Explorer fleet. Not as funny as it sounds. It has plenty of Damage to soak up the pain (though this won't help against critical effects), and the magic Interceptors 3. The Heavy Pulse Cannon, being twin-linked and Double Damage can cause some grief, though they are not exactly game-winning. The 30 Starfury flights they throw out could be interesting, however, especially if you swap them out for Thunderbolts.

On paper, the Hermes initially looks good, but swarms cannot repel the firepwer of the Sagittarius, and Interceptors 1 makes it prime for overwhelming. You can mass quite a few jump points though. . .

The Hyperion could be a contender, especially with a 4 AD Heavy Laser, but would likely lose legs once the battle starts getting vicious. Still, put a couple in hyperspace, have the others in a gaggle making runs on one or two Sagittarius at a time, and you may put up a good fight. However, not what we are looking for. Much the same applies to the Nova, except it will survive a bit longer, but do less damage in that time - and we are looking for ships that have more agility than a Sagittarius, not less.

Assuming a tournament setting, I would give 5 Chronos frigates a great deal of thought. Hull 6, Damage 20 and Interceptors 3 should make them very durable against incoming missiles. They also kick out a hefty amount of firepower, letting the Heavy Pulse Cannon overwhelm a Sagittarius' Interceptors, before wailing on it with Railguns. True, it is only AP, but it needs the same score to hit a Sagittarius as a Sagittarius does with its missiles, and while the Sagittarius has better potential for criticals, the Chronos has a better ability to avoid damage altogether through interception. An interesting possibility.

I briefly considered the Delphi, but that is probably asking for a hiding :)

The Marathon, however, is another interesting on. Take one and three Chronos, or two Marathons and one Chronos. This puppy has all the advantages of the Chrons, plus more Damage, Interceptors 4, Starfuries (change for Thunderbolts), a Flight Computer for when damage starts to tell, Triple Damage weapons (with 4 AD beams, you are talking some serious hurt), and arrays that can ignore Interceptors altogether. Both this and the Chronos also have lots of Troops, giving you yet another option.

We may have found a winner - I am going to have to try this over the weekend. Not that this is necessarily a tournament winner, you understand - I have a feeling a good Minbari fleet would smack it all over the place. But those are the risks you take with a 'trick' fleet.

This Interceptors train of thought also got us thinking about the Abbai, of course. 10 Milani are probably not going to cut it - it would be a real battle of attrition, with the Milani intercepting swathes of missiles, while their piddly little combat lasers chipped away (nice critical potential though). For a really long game, try the Marata :)

However, the Bimith is probably where it is at with the Abbai. Lots of Damage, lots of Interceptors and enough firepower to make any EA fleet break down and cry. It is not as if the Sagittarius' are going to be steaming away from them. . .

Or maybe a mix of the above, with a single Lakara. Interceptors 8 allows you to weather quite a lot of incoming fire, it has the Hull and the Damage, plus a nice, though short ranged, combat laser. Maybe sprinkle the odd Shyarie in as well.

Just some idle thoughts. I'll let you know the results of the games we try!
 
of course people want to choose a fleet that has a good chance against all opponents, if everyone starts taking an EA Anti sag fleet. . . all you need is one well prepared Narn nutter (enter reaverman) and he could win the shole shebang, even loosing to the sags might mean nothing if everyone else beats them!
 
Tank said:
Matt, agree with your point about terrain and that probably not enough players use it and yes it can maketh the game.

But Whitestars with Dodge & Adaptive Armour and their maneouverability are probably not the best selection to see how broken a 10 Sag fleet is.

I dont mind the new Sag (Obviously as an EA player) but then I wouldnt field 10 of them.

of course there will always be people who bitch about things, overpowered Sags, Gross Ka'tans/Ka'tocs, panse Vorchans etc etc thats just life, and if I get ganked by an uber fleet on 16th well ce la vie.

No kidding. In a match between the 1st most broken ship, the tourney Sag, and the 2nd most broken ship, the Whitestar, then of course it'll be close becaue they're both broken; one's just more so broken than the other.
Oh, and this opinion is excluding Drakh from the picture, because I think the Mothership is the most broken ship in the game, but it's War so at least it's not used often; oh, and don't try to ar5gue for the Mothership because it's the only ship in the game to get 2.5 pts worth of crap for a single War point.
 
Yellow Beard hiffano said:
of course people want to choose a fleet that has a good chance against all opponents, if everyone starts taking an EA Anti sag fleet. . . all you need is one well prepared Narn nutter (enter reaverman) and he could win the shole shebang, even loosing to the sags might mean nothing if everyone else beats them!

Hiff, my Narn are good. But not that good, I'd get my botty spanked
 
Actually, I'm planning on trying out this against it later tonight...I'll letcha know how it goes:

Lakara
2 Bimiths (likely to jump one in the middle of them)
3 Shyarie

Lots of Interceptors, Scout abilities galore, and massive numbers of Comm Disruptors to screw with their CAFing and Come Abouts.

I think it oughtta do well.

Bry
 
SylvrDragon said:
oh, and don't try to ar5gue for the Mothership because it's the only ship in the game to get 2.5 pts worth of crap for a single War point.
Its also the only one that gives you 70 VP's when you destroy it and all its raders, too ;) Other War ships are only worth 30.
 
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