2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Rick
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 pm

That's a very fair point, lol!
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:01 am

hiro wrote:One of the things I love about science fiction is its all about a future and its fiction.

In my fiction filled future I'd love to see the decline of nationalism and other useless constructs, yeah, money, I am talking about you...

Is that realistic? In my life time? Hell no!

Do I care?

Hell no!

It's a game, make it what you want it to be. Discuss it with like minded people to help you develop the ideas...

Please, skip the history, there was a wealth of discussion about the flaws of The Game and the superpowers it spawned and countries it divided. Can we get back to the NSL please?
If there are like minded people, there is nothing to discuss, as they all agree with you already. What evidence do you see of Nationalism in decline? I haven't seen any, if anything we are more nationalistic than ever before, just ask Putin about that if you doubt me. As for not needing money, okay, if you need a laser pistol the store owner gives you one for free, as he says money is of little import and he doesn't need to make money, so he just gives stuff to all his customers for free, and they keep coming back, imagine that, and Santa always makes a delivery down the chimney to replace those items he gave away. As for the NSL, what's to discuss, the stars are there so they should be on the map if the game purports to be a realistic near future setting, so if new stars are discovered, they are simply added to the map, if that inconveniences people too bad!
Rick
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Rick » Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:24 am

hiro wrote:Yeah, that's true but then you're just increasing the work load and covering up holes you just created which seems counter intuitive to me.
I'll have to see if I can find a 2d map using the original star list at some point and see how it compares.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:25 pm

Rick wrote:
hiro wrote:Yeah, that's true but then you're just increasing the work load and covering up holes you just created which seems counter intuitive to me.
I'll have to see if I can find a 2d map using the original star list at some point and see how it compares.
3-d star maps will always hold more stars, and it is much easier just to list the stars and their 3-d coordinates than to actually put them on a map that means anything.

This is a map of the naked eye stars within 50 light years, about the same volume covered by the 2300 AD Near Star Map. The Near Star Map contains more stars than this, because it includes some stars that can't be seen by the naked eye. Probably the brighter ones are the important ones anyway:
Image
If you want to look at the website I took this from, its here with a listing of their coordinates:
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/50lys.html

This is a map of the G-stars within 100 light years if you want to go further:
Image
Which are found here:
http://www.solstation.com/stars3/100-gs.htm
within that volume is a red giant star named Gamma Crux, it is the nearest one to Sol
http://www.solstation.com/stars2/gacrux2.htm, its habitable zone starts at 38 AU so it is as big as our Solar System and it radiates 1500 times as much energy as our Sun. Sirius by contrast is only 21 times brighter http://www.solstation.com/stars/sirius2.htm
Rick
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Rick » Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:21 pm

Tom - whoa there hoss. First things first - if I have a list of stars, I can work out the distance between 2 of them using their coordinates without needing it drawn on a 3d map. What I need a 2d map for is to identify which stars are relatively near to each other in an approximate way, so I know which ones to look up on the list of stars. I find this method works just about fine for me.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
Reynard
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Reynard » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:22 pm

Actually I like that big blue 3D map! I've wanted a decent one to be able to plot out routes by distances limited to the particular game locomotion. Tom, thank you for finding it! Looks so much better than the one I hand drew years ago.
dragoner
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby dragoner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:04 pm

I posted that site in the other thread, the list is old though.
hiro

Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby hiro » Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:21 pm

I like the 3d map but can it be edited to show systems that can be linked within the 7.7 ly limit?

Without that you have a ball of dots that are hard to visualise as a map.

The arm/finger diagrams in the original work well for me, Astrosynthesis, I think, can generate these but I am yet to buy it. Can anyone tell me if I can enter a bunch of X,Y,Z coordinates along with my own star data and it will map it for me?
dragoner
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby dragoner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:12 pm

I don't own it, it doesn't really interest me.
hiro

Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby hiro » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:40 pm

Dragoner

How would you present a 3d map to your players?

Ya know, just if you wanted to...
Reynard
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Reynard » Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:13 pm

For me, I work out the distance manually as a matrix then draw a line on the map. If I was that kind of intensive, I'd rebuild my old spreadsheet. I'm assuming the coordinates are the new locations? Otherwise I still have a print out of my old spreadsheet. 1400 systems? That's a lot in a compact area with more possible connections compared to a flat hex or even a flat grid.
dragoner
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby dragoner » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:55 pm

hiro wrote:Dragoner

How would you present a 3d map to your players?

Ya know, just if you wanted to...
With that atlas site is probably the best idea, though a long time ago, I used the Space Opera style, of a flat piece of paper with +/- off the galactic plane. That worked ok, but I still found myself doing all the work for charting a course. Really it is just finding a system and using it; that's why I drifted back to the 2D map, it was easier, and I could concentrate on other stuff.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:05 am

Rick wrote:Tom - whoa there hoss. First things first - if I have a list of stars, I can work out the distance between 2 of them using their coordinates without needing it drawn on a 3d map. What I need a 2d map for is to identify which stars are relatively near to each other in an approximate way, so I know which ones to look up on the list of stars. I find this method works just about fine for me.
The first one gives you 3-d coordinates, the x-y plane is the Galactic Plane, you get polar coordinates from that, the solid lines go up from that and the dotted lines go down. The polar coordinates measure angle and radius from sol of their flat components, you measure the length of the vertical lines to get the distance above or below the polar coordinate plane. You can find the distance between any two stars with geometry and triangles, remembering that the lengths of the sides of the triangle are proportionate to their opposite angles, you already have the angle from the origin and you have the lengths of two sides of the triangle, and from that you can determine the length of the third side, which is the distance between the two stars in question, then you can use Pythagorean theorem to determine the distance between two stars with the difference in vertical distance from the plane.
Rick
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Rick » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:14 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Rick wrote:Tom - whoa there hoss. First things first - if I have a list of stars, I can work out the distance between 2 of them using their coordinates without needing it drawn on a 3d map. What I need a 2d map for is to identify which stars are relatively near to each other in an approximate way, so I know which ones to look up on the list of stars. I find this method works just about fine for me.
The first one gives you 3-d coordinates, the x-y plane is the Galactic Plane, you get polar coordinates from that, the solid lines go up from that and the dotted lines go down. The polar coordinates measure angle and radius from sol of their flat components, you measure the length of the vertical lines to get the distance above or below the polar coordinate plane. You can find the distance between any two stars with geometry and triangles, remembering that the lengths of the sides of the triangle are proportionate to their opposite angles, you already have the angle from the origin and you have the lengths of two sides of the triangle, and from that you can determine the length of the third side, which is the distance between the two stars in question, then you can use Pythagorean theorem to determine the distance between two stars with the difference in vertical distance from the plane.
Yes. I know how to do it. I was just trying to explain that a 3d map was superfluous for my requirements. I'm sure other gamers find them essential, but I'm perfectly fine as I am. End of.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Reynard » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:45 pm

For me, 2D is for ease while 3D adds realism. Players only need to know if they can get from here to there in some time frame. The referee wants to know how systems interact by distance and limitations on starship engines and fuel to determine how a game will go. A 3D map is for the adventurous referees.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:31 pm

Reynard wrote:For me, 2D is for ease while 3D adds realism. Players only need to know if they can get from here to there in some time frame. The referee wants to know how systems interact by distance and limitations on starship engines and fuel to determine how a game will go. A 3D map is for the adventurous referees.
Imagine if they used Traveller's Jump Drive with that map. It would effectively eliminate the arms.
Jump-3 will get you 9.78 light years, Jump-4 would get you 13.04 light years. and the number of stars you can reach increases according to the cube of the distance you can jump, in 2-d traveller, it increases only to the square of that distance. That is probably why the stutterwarp was invented. Though in Star Trek, they get around 3-d space just fine using warp drives without distance limits.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Reynard » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:32 pm

As I talked about on another thread a while back, that's exactly what I did. Not the Enterprise thread though that followed some of what I did earlier.

I took the NSL and put it in a spreadsheet then went through each cell that represented distance between every two system and determined the Jump number. Had to play with the Jumps because Alpha Centauri is not Jump one. The hand drawn map for that is on Yahoo group. This is why I'd like to see how much the Trade and Communication routes have changes with the new NSL.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:51 pm

Reynard wrote:As I talked about on another thread a while back, that's exactly what I did. Not the Enterprise thread though that followed some of what I did earlier.

I took the NSL and put it in a spreadsheet then went through each cell that represented distance between every two system and determined the Jump number. Had to play with the Jumps because Alpha Centauri is not Jump one. The hand drawn map for that is on Yahoo group. This is why I'd like to see how much the Trade and Communication routes have changes with the new NSL.
You could reintepret the meaning of Jump-1 to mean that 1 parsec is the average distance of Jump-1, meaning it goes from 0.50 tp 1.49 parsecs, Jump-2 goes from 1.5 to 2.49 parsecs and so on. If Alpha centauri is less than 1.5 parsecs away, it can be reached by Jump one. Also the space between the stars is not completely empty, lower mass objects are more numerous than higher mass objects, and hydrogen is the most common element in the Universe. One could combine elements of an interstellar ramjet with a Jump Drive and it would not even need to skim gas giants!
Image
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Reynard » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:57 am

Bussard ramjet?

"You could reintepret the meaning of Jump-1 to mean that 1 parsec is the average distance of Jump-1, meaning it goes from 0.50 tp 1.49 parsecs, Jump-2 goes from 1.5 to 2.49 parsecs and so on"

And that's what I did. Jump 1 = 1.5 PC, etc. Just enough to make the system work with real space.
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Re: 2300AD Realistic Near Star Map

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:47 am

Reynard wrote:Bussard ramjet?

"You could reintepret the meaning of Jump-1 to mean that 1 parsec is the average distance of Jump-1, meaning it goes from 0.50 tp 1.49 parsecs, Jump-2 goes from 1.5 to 2.49 parsecs and so on"

And that's what I did. Jump 1 = 1.5 PC, etc. Just enough to make the system work with real space.
Just think, by having the Jump Drive invented in 2063, we're missing out on Bussard Ramjets.
Image
Image
Some more on the bussard ramjet here:
http://www.xenology.info/Xeno/17.3.3.htm
Says its 1000 tons, hard to get floorplans for the Bussard Ramjet, wonder what it would cost in traveller terms? My guess somewhere around 500 million credits, says it could reach a maximum velocity of 99.999998%c at accelerations of 1g. Wonder what would happen if we introduced those in a classic Traveller campaign. One could cross a galactic rift easily enough in those, so long as you got the time.

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