far-trader wrote:You do know where all your cheap products are manufactured right. Try to build your Blu-Rays, I-Pads, even the plastic toys and furniture in Wal-Mart in the good ol USA and tell me you'll be competitive.
You're both missing the whole picture. Or are so willfully invested in your CT hate that you can't admit any possibility you might be wrong.
CT LBB7 does increase the base cost of goods by TL, but that is offset by other factors, and the actual cost comparatively IS lower.
Whatever. DFW's original point was Traveller didn't address this. I pointed out he was wrong. Then he claims well yeah but they got it wrong, High Tech goods should cost more in Low Tech settings. I point out that Traveller does this in fact. So then he claims...
....it's obvious to me it's pointless continuing. You know, if you feel it is so wrong and broken, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Write an article to fix it and submit it to S&P or somewhere. Show us how you'd do it.
We aren't wrong.
Let's take a real world example to demolish yours.
In 1980 I bought my first computer, an Apple IIe (64k RAM), an Amber Screen Monitor (12"?) with no real graphics capability, an exernal single sided 5 1/4" floppy disk drive (180k capacity) and a Dot Matrix Printer.
All up cost? $4000 (A$, so probably around US$3250-3500).
My wage at the time, as a teacher on the 5th year of the Salary Scale? Around A$17500-20000 (I don't remember exactly, but starting salary in 1977 was A$10414, and each increment was c. $1000-1500). Say A$20k for the sake of argument.
So that Apple IIe cost around 20% of my gross income.
Today? I can get a pretty red hot, if not Alienware cutting edge, white box computer, 24" HD screen, Laser Printer etc. for that $4000. And a fifth year teacher earns around A$60000 ... which means that far superior package costs around 6% of that salary.
Say we increase the price by double to allow for labour costs, that's still only 12%, so it is still relatively cheaper and, of course, far more capable.
Why? Because technology advances and finds cheaper ways of doing things.
Take another example, the price of iron dropped dramatically between the 14th and 15th centuries, to the point where Mail armour largely stopped being produced (any mail in later armour tends to be reused early manufacture - right through to WW1, IIUIC) and was replaced by Plate Armour, which had been prohibitively expensive before. Why?
The long term price trends for key commodities - food basically - through the period don't move significantly enough to explain the massive change.
What happened was the adoption of a serious of technological breakthroughs - such as the waterwheel powered bellows - that increased the efficiency of metal smelting and working, so the price dropped.
Or take the well know increase in agricultural productivity from an average of 1.5-2:1 return on grain sewn of the early classical period with 2-3:1 return of the later classical period (basically BC vs AD), which was the result, as far as we can tell, of simply sewing the rows (such as they were) together more closely, getting more productivity from the same amount of land.
Price per capita went down, at least it did for as long as the Malthusian equations to come into play ... which they generally did in c. 100 years before the development of modern Agricultural and, more importantly, transport, techniques and technologies from about the 17th century.
There are lots more example.
Even your Blu Ray players - when they came out first they cost (here in Oz, anyway) around $2000, give or take a couple of hundred dollars. Now they're down to maybe a tenth of that.
Even if more expensive US labour doubled that $200 to $400, even if it quadrupled it, they would still be cheaper.
And that doesn't allow for the fact of increased wages (whether the result of inflation or genuine productivity increases) over the last whatever years between their intro and the present which makes them much cheaper in relative as well as absolute terms.
This has nothing to do with CT. The original 3LBB had virtually nothing to say about TLs and economics - and its been the layering on of ill considered details through the later CT period, Megatraveller, TNE and the like that have created a problem that didn't originally exist.
Which I actually have no problem with, because I ignore it as being quite silly.
I even have no problem with people who want to play games that follow everty jot and tittle of the OTU without the least concern as to whether it makes sense or not.
Just don't try to justify the layered on silliness, is all.