Pop-up turret question

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snrdg121408
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Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:23 pm

Hello all,

I vaguely recall I asked about this years ago, but I cannot find that post or the notes I saved back then.

Can the pop-up mechanism be applied to barbettes?
snrdg121408 (aka Tom R)
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Condottiere » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:53 pm

Theoretically, yes.

I doubt it's ever been officially sanctioned.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby AndrewW » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:59 pm

snrdg121408 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:23 pm
Hello all,

I vaguely recall I asked about this years ago, but I cannot find that post or the notes I saved back then.

Can the pop-up mechanism be applied to barbettes?
Yes, but at a higher cost/tonnage.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:16 pm

Afternoon Condottiere from the Pacific Northwest,
Condottiere wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:53 pm
Theoretically, yes.

I doubt it's ever been officially sanctioned.
"Barbettes are effectively a heavy turret." per HG 2e page 25/PDF page 26.

Thank you for the qualified yes to my barbette using a pop-up mechanism question.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:18 pm

Howdy AndrewW,
AndrewW wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:59 pm
snrdg121408 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:23 pm
Hello all,

I vaguely recall I asked about this years ago, but I cannot find that post or the notes I saved back then.

Can the pop-up mechanism be applied to barbettes?
Yes, but at a higher cost/tonnage.
Thank you for the answer of yes and I agree that having a pop-up barbette requires the same increase in tonnage and cost as a pop-turret.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Condottiere » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:28 pm

Going by the canon example, you need the same amount of tonnage internally.

Cost would be the external hatch and the equipment to elevate the barbette.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:09 pm

Hi Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:28 pm
Going by the canon example, you need the same amount of tonnage internally.

Cost would be the external hatch and the equipment to elevate the barbette.
HG 2e page 24/PDF page 25

Pop-up Mounting: TL 10; Power +0; Tons +1; Cost MCr1.

All the turrets require Hull space of 1 ton by adding the pop-up mechanism increase the tonnage from turret 1 ton + pop-up mount 1 ton = 2 tons. Cost increase by MCr1.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Condottiere » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:33 pm

What, three tonnes for a one tonne turret?
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Ursus Maior » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:39 pm

No, one turret comes in at 1 dton. And the pop-up modification costs another dton.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:06 pm

Morning Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:33 pm
What, three tonnes for a one tonne turret?
My apologies for not going into greater detail in my post.

HG 2e page 24/PDF 25

Mount Table
Fixed Mount: TL -; Power 0; Tons 0; Cost MCr0.1
Single Turret: TL 7; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.2
Double Turret: TL 8; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.5
Triple Turret: TL 9; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr1
Pop-up Mounting: TL 10; Power 0; Tons +1; Cost MCr1

"Pop-up Mounting: This can be applied to any turret or fixed mount. The weapon system is concealed in a pod or recess on the hull, and detectable only when deployed. A ship with all its weapons hidden in pop-up mounts will appear to be unarmed to a sensor scan that focusses only on its exterior."

The Mount table shows that a turret takes up 1 ton of a hulls internal volume. Modifying the turret to be hidden using a pop-up mount appears to me that +1 ton is added to the turrets 1 ton of space requirement.

An 1 ton turret + an 1 ton pop-up mount = 2 tons and increases the turret cost by MCr1.

A fixed mount using a pop-up mount requires fixed mount 0 tons + an 1 ton pop-up mount = an 1 ton fixed pop-up mount with a cost of MCr1.1.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:08 pm

Hello Ursus Maior,
Ursus Maior wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:39 pm
No, one turret comes in at 1 dton. And the pop-up modification costs another dton.
Thank you for confirming that I have not screwed up my addition skills.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Ursus Maior » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:20 pm

I hope, I wasn't rude. The idea of so many dtons added just didn't strike me as likely, given that CT and MgT always had pop-up mounts at one dton. I'm not 100 percent sure on barbettes, though. They're certainly described as being "basically heavy turrets". But I'm not sure that relates to "can have pop-up mounts as well". One could argue that barbettes are not that much larger on the outside of a vessel as to make much of a difference for the pop-up mechanism as most of the barbette seems to be the actual "barbette" (in a naval armament sense) in the hull itself.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:16 pm

Hello Ursus Maior,
Ursus Maior wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:20 pm
I hope, I wasn't rude. The idea of so many dtons added just didn't strike me as likely, given that CT and MgT always had pop-up mounts at one dton. I'm not 100 percent sure on barbettes, though. They're certainly described as being "basically heavy turrets". But I'm not sure that relates to "can have pop-up mounts as well". One could argue that barbettes are not that much larger on the outside of a vessel as to make much of a difference for the pop-up mechanism as most of the barbette seems to be the actual "barbette" (in a naval armament sense) in the hull itself.
I do not believe you were rude and I have on more than one occasion screwed up simple math, usually not addition.

My image is that a barbette's housing above the hull might be a bit larger than that of a turret the major difference is that the guts of a barbette take up more hull space as described in HG 2e.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e lists barbettes as turrets. JTAS 4 pp. 14-21 on the Gazelle Close Escort also described the particle accelerate barbette as being a heavy laser turret IIRC.

Thnak you for your comments.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:03 am

You probably should set aside a certain percentage for the elevation equipment, since you have to assume that having the exact dimensions of the popped up tart only covers the turret in question, not the ancillary gear, say ten or twenty percent.

Ten percent, if you take rotating hulls and hamster cages as examples.
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Re: Pop-up turret question

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:47 pm

Hello Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:03 am
You probably should set aside a certain percentage for the elevation equipment, since you have to assume that having the exact dimensions of the popped up tart only covers the turret in question, not the ancillary gear, say ten or twenty percent.

Ten percent, if you take rotating hulls and hamster cages as examples.
Thank you for your input and I agree that a pop-up mount mechanism is probably going to be bigger that 1 ton.

Turrets per the table take up 1 ton of the hulls internal space and the pop-up mount needs an additional 1 ton. This suggests that the pop-up mount requires 100% additional space based on the turret size of 1 ton. So if I decided to have a pop-up barbette the mechanism should be at least 5 tons. I guess I'll not use pop-up barbettes, though I think that would be a bigger shock to the pirate, privateer, commerce raider, or Vargr corsair attacking the Q-ship.
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