Adding radiation shielding

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paltrysum
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Adding radiation shielding

Postby paltrysum » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:43 am

Is it possible to add rad shielding to an existing ship? Since it requires no tonnage, my instincts say yes. Looking for validation from the community.
Last edited by paltrysum on Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AnotherDilbert
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:48 am

I guess anything can be done, but perhaps not economically:
MgT1 TCS, p16, Refitting Ships wrote: Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.

MgT1 HG, 41, Armour wrote: Armour options must be added when the ship’s armour is installed, and cannot be easily retrofitted.

Heat Shielding: ...

Radiation Shielding: ...

In MgT2 Radiation Shielding is a Hull Option like Stealth, I would still that integral to the hull.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Linwood » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:29 am

You could maybe justify it as a temporary add with consequences. Maybe a spray-on coating that’s partially effective but wears off on atmospheric entry and interferes with sensors.

Or you could create safe rooms - compartments lined with materials like the radiation blankets use that could be used as shelters in the event of a solar flare or similar event. I would restrict that to just crew and passenger quarters though.

Adding permanent shielding - no, I am aligned with RAW on that. Buy a better ship....
Old School
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Old School » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:52 am

I would say no. Its built into the hull. I would allow something along the lines of a vault added to an existing cargo bay to provide protection for passengers, etc.

Adding it to the bridge of a typical adventure class vessel? No.

Tell your pirates that they need to steal a military vessel or build a ship if they are scared of particle beams. Standard designs not withstanding, I think that a gazelle or larger craft patrolling the trojan reach would have it included.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby paltrysum » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Thanks for the responses. I'll go with the consensus which is a resounding no, it can't be done because it's integral to the hull. It's come up in my Pirates campaign, in which the mercenary cruiser, Hero, was subjected to multiple PA attacks from the Harrier. The mercs managed to escape, irradiated but alive, and I was pondering whether the players' next encounter with them might feature a newly RAD shielded ship.
Old School wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:52 am
Tell your pirates that they need to steal a military vessel or build a ship if they are scared of particle beams. Standard designs not withstanding, I think that a gazelle or larger craft patrolling the trojan reach would have it included.
I went with the published versions of the Gazelle, which are not RAD shielded, but let's just say that in MTU, the Imperium are not fools. Newly built Gazelles assigned to the Reach will be protected from radiation. Might seem like overkill based on one pirate ship having a PA, but if "Treasure of Sindal" is any indication, the Harrier is far from the only pirate ship with such a weapon. (Never mind that the adventure has ulterior motives for giving so many ships a PA; the fact is the weapon is shown to be prevalent among pirates.)
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phavoc
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby phavoc » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:09 pm

Should be easy enough to add as an external layer (easier to add externally than internally). But maybe not cheap, as every sensor, every hatch, every weapon port, etc, needs additional work. Which is why it's much easier to build into the armor/hull itself at the time of manufacture.

But armor has been added to warships since the concept of armor was created in the days of sail. Depending on how punitive you want the costs to be, it would probably be about 10%-20% of the cost of the hull to retrofit.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Old School » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 pm

Heck, don’t let this stop you if you want them to encounter a shielded Hero down the line. Just because the Hero can’t be shielded, doesn’t mean the Hero 2 can’t be. Perhaps Captain Ygrant’s patron, whoever that might be, sees the rising prevalence of particle beam weapons and commisions a new ship. Or perhaps the patron commissions a new ship expressively for the purpose of going after the Harrier. Rich people and their grudges. . .

Phavoc, I would rule that an external layer added after the fact would add mass to the ship, which lowers the effectiveness of its drives and renders it non-streamlined. If you can live with that, bolt on whatever you want.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:40 pm

Just let the Mercs buy some heavy duty hard shell anti-rad vacc suits?

Between the standard 500 rad hull protection and say another 300 for a suit plus plentiful anti-rad drugs, they will only occasionally lose EDU.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Old School » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:01 pm

If by occasionally you mean every fourth hit, then yes. That anti rad drug might stop the first one, might not. Even if you’d actually allow a bunch of 2nd rate mercs access to battledress levels of protection, it doesn’t sound like a great plan for a crew who already have been irradiated once. The Hero is basically a bully that picks on both the little guys and the other bullies. They’ve also likely learned the hard way that the Harrier is both very accurate and extremely well defended against missle salvos (the only weapon they can hope to employ against the Harrier). They aren’t going to go looking for a rematch without serious shielding.
paltrysum
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby paltrysum » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:29 pm

I figure it was probably a traumatic enough incident that half those mercs might find another line of work. But Captain Ygrant, as described in "Ship Encounters" sounds like a woman dedicated to her chosen career. She might be sporting a newly bald head and some radiation scarring, but this just gives me an opportunity to introduce yet another recurring nemesis for the group.

As for the Hero 2, we shall see. I can't imagine that the economics of Captain Ygrant's operation enable her to easily buy a new ship. After all, she is playing dirty pool as Old School described above, bullying ships and operating as a borderline pirate herself. I would assume that extracurriculars such as those indicate the pressures of economics. Either that, or Ygrant is just a bad seed. :twisted:
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:01 pm

Radiation shielding can be retrofitted.

Stealth involves optimizing the shape of the hull to absorb or deflect away outside radiation, so you might as well scrap the current ship and use the components in a new hull.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Old School » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:14 pm

Captain Ygrant isn’t buying a new ship, but who says she owns the current one? Even if she does, maybe one her newly irradiated gunners was the blacksheep of some noble family who got kicked out the navy a few years back. Mom and Dad were happy to see him sign on with some private unit it in the boonies to keep him out of their hair and the public eye. Now that's he’s been permanently injured by some filthy pirates in the Borderlands, they are overcome with guilt and rage, and their only way they know how to deal with their problems is with their checkbook.

TLDR: no, you can’t add shielding after the fsct without causing more problems than its worth, but if you want Captain Ygrant in a shielded broadsword (or perhaps some other private vessel) in your campaign, go for it. Any number of ways for it to come about.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:15 pm

Old School wrote: If by occasionally you mean every fourth hit, then yes.
You have to do more than 150 rads to do END damage. With shielding and armour reducing inflicted rads by 800 that is only on 10+ (16%) = 1000+ rad, so about 1 in 6. Not great, but better than just giving up and quitting?

Old School wrote: That anti rad drug might stop the first one, might not.
I don't think it does:
msprange wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:18 pm
* 801 is cumulative for a total of -10 END and lots of damage dice. He should be dead... And no, anti-rads remove rads, not END loss. We mean it when we say permanent.

Old School wrote: They’ve also likely learned the hard way that the Harrier is both very accurate and extremely well defended against missle salvos (the only weapon they can hope to employ against the Harrier).
A bunch of Long Range laser turrets should dispatch the Harrier without problem. Might need a sensor upgrade to see it though?


Of course it would be better to buy a new ship with shielding, but that is kind of expensive, and probably time consuming.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby phavoc » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:39 pm

Old School wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:16 pm
Heck, don’t let this stop you if you want them to encounter a shielded Hero down the line. Just because the Hero can’t be shielded, doesn’t mean the Hero 2 can’t be. Perhaps Captain Ygrant’s patron, whoever that might be, sees the rising prevalence of particle beam weapons and commisions a new ship. Or perhaps the patron commissions a new ship expressively for the purpose of going after the Harrier. Rich people and their grudges. . .

Phavoc, I would rule that an external layer added after the fact would add mass to the ship, which lowers the effectiveness of its drives and renders it non-streamlined. If you can live with that, bolt on whatever you want.
But mass isn't an issue for Traveller ships, just displacement. And, depending on how the refit works (bolted on, do you remove the existing armor and retrofit, etc), that's what counts. It's very ill defined as things stand for displacement. Would adding 40mm of plating externally materially effect the ships displacement? Or is it within some percentage allowed to make things work? I dunno. Lots of the game concepts are handwavium.

If the Japanese could effectively rebuild the Ise surely a Gazelle or any other class ship can be retrofitted?
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby Old School » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:07 pm

It only takes 51 rads to cause 1D damage, and that’s ignoring the fact that your crew has already been exposed once for at least 100 rads, meaning that further exposure will cause permanent damage. So even assuming that 300 rad suits are available outside of battledress (if so, why doesn’t everyone use them) and advanced long range pulse lasers (which the Hero doesn’t have) exist in the OTU (if so, why doesn’t everyone use them? The advantage gained vs. the cost is a no-brainer.) we’re back to a 10 in 36 chance, with the caveat that the first exposure has a 40% chance of getting completely absorbed by the anti rad drug.

The Harrier has evade software, +2 fire control, a +2 sensors advantage, a +9 stealth advantage, +6 countermeasures advantage, and enough thrust to 1) keep the Hero at range, 2)dodge attacks, and 3) skill chain the pilot and the gunner for attacks all at the same time. Fair to assume it has a more highly skilled crew as well? The stealth advantage is likely to result in the Harrier getting a free shot against an unsuspecting target, and it will make most attacks with a sensor lock.

The only advantage the Hero has is its size, and that advantage is completely negated by the devestation of a particle barbette.

The Hero and its crew make a living picking semi-legitimate fights. They lost one and lived to tell about it. Are they bloodthirsty enough to be near suicidal in their quest for revenge, or are they pragmatic enough to cut losses and move on? Everything the referee is given to work with indicates the latter. Barring a gamechanger such as a new ship, they aren’t going to be keen on tangling with the Harrier again. Their forte is easier prey. The risk/reward ratio of fighting the Harrier means our practical yet corrupt Capt. Ygrant has sufdenly lost her mind in your scenario.

A patron with more money than sense is far more likely than a 50 person crew of kinda sorta pirates who suddenly have a death wish because they lost one fight.
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Re: Adding radiation shielding

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:16 pm

Old School wrote: It only takes 51 rads to cause 1D damage, and that’s ignoring the fact that your crew has already been exposed once for at least 100 rads, meaning that further exposure will cause permanent damage.
Anti-rad drugs trivially removes any cumulative radiation exposure between battles.

Old School wrote: So even assuming that 300 rad suits are available outside of battledress (if so, why doesn’t everyone use them) ...
They might have some disadvantage, like a DEX penalty? But, no, they don't exist unless the Ref invents them.

Old School wrote: ... and advanced long range pulse lasers (which the Hero doesn’t have) exist in the OTU (if so, why doesn’t everyone use them?
The rules say they exist and Imperial BBs seems to use them, so I guess they exist in the OTU.

Turrets and turret weapons can be replaced.

Old School wrote: The Harrier has evade software, +2 fire control, a +2 sensors advantage, a +9 stealth advantage, +6 countermeasures advantage, and enough thrust to 1) keep the Hero at range, 2)dodge attacks, and 3) skill chain the pilot and the gunner for attacks all at the same time. Fair to assume it has a more highly skilled crew as well? The stealth advantage is likely to result in the Harrier getting a free shot against an unsuspecting target, and it will make most attacks with a sensor lock.

The only advantage the Hero has is its size, and that advantage is completely negated by the devestation of a particle barbette.
I agree the Harrier is good, but also small, hence fewer turrets and Hull. The MC also has a computer, and can dodge all the Harriers attacks. The Harrier can't dodge eight attacks from the MC.

The sensor and stealth advantage is rather large though. There is, as far as I know, no mechanism to automatically discover ships when they attack.

Old School wrote: The Hero and its crew make a living picking semi-legitimate fights. They lost one and lived to tell about it. Are they bloodthirsty enough to be near suicidal in their quest for revenge, or are they pragmatic enough to cut losses and move on?
They might not hunt the Harrier, but they might cross paths with them again, whether they want to or not.

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