Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

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Moppy
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Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am

Core 2 & High Guard 2. Have we get these rules right? I thought to check. Maybe we missed something or there is errata.

Non-missiles are +gunner to hit, then do weapon-armor+effect roll. With armor levels in the double digits (15?), most common weapons like 1d beams do nothing. Triple turret adds +1 per dice per extra weapon and therefore triple pulse at 2d+4+DMs might do something.

Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles. A +3 effect roll from a single missile salvo is x3 damage. Missiles seem the only useful damage source for heavily armored ships in core rules, and they also seem highly unpredictable.

High Guard 2 adds the heavier turrets (particle, fusion etc) and weapon bays which are needed to damage armored ships. Seems OK, and I don't have a problem that an SDB needs a bay or lucky missile roll to crack open.

Considering missiles. There are many "per salvo" rules but salvo size scales steeply and these rules don't. 4 triple turret has a salvo weight of 12, but the capital in the Naval Adventures has a salvo of 2,880 yet it's still one salvo.

Electronic warfare (EW) can target each salvo only 1x per round no matter how sensor operators are available. Is this per ship? I don't really care if 6 missiles from a 3,000 missile salvo are dropped. Did we miss an EW rule, or it's ineffective?

Missile to hit is -6 at long range. Again salvo scaling. Effective vs 12, but not 3000.

Bays get additional effects, and I think I asked this before, but how does this apply to missiles where the warheads are all combined? How do you resolve an attack that combines missile bays and turrets - and why are 12 misiles from turrets different from 12 missiles from a bay?
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby DickTurpin » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:03 am

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Core 2 & High Guard 2. Have we get these rules right? I thought to check. Maybe we missed something or there is errata.

Non-missiles are +gunner to hit, then do weapon-armor+effect roll. With armor levels in the double digits (15?), most common weapons like 1d beams do nothing. Triple turret adds +1 per dice per extra weapon and therefore triple pulse at 2d+4+DMs might do something.

Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles.
". . . damage is then multiplied by the Effect of the attack roll (the Effect cannot exceed the number of missiles in the salvo)." CRB p. 162 (emphasis added).

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am

Considering missiles. There are many "per salvo" rules but salvo size scales steeply and these rules don't. 4 triple turret has a salvo weight of 12, but the capital in the Naval Adventures has a salvo of 2,880 yet it's still one salvo.
Yes, but salvos larger than 30-50 missiles are usually a huge waste of money unless the target has truly formidable defenses. Getting a +1,000 DM for salvo size guarantees a hit and huge damage, but only Cruiser sized ships and above really rate that kind of attack. Salvo sizes should be doubled if missiles (not torpedoes) are shot from Distant range to account for missiles lost due to guidance and motor problems.

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Electronic warfare (EW) can target each salvo only 1x per round no matter how sensor operators are available. Is this per ship? I don't really care if 6 missiles from a 3,000 missile salvo are dropped. Did we miss an EW rule, or it's ineffective?

EW is a Difficult (10+) roll so it is largely ineffective unless you have great sensors, sensor upgrades, and a highly skilled and intelligent sensor operator. ". . . a salvo may only be subjected to Electronic Warfare once per round, no matter how many sensor operators are available." CRB p. 162. That pretty clearly states that the salvo can only be hit with EW once per round, not that each ship gets to try.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 am

DickTurpin wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:03 am

Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles.
". . . damage is then multiplied by the Effect of the attack roll (the Effect cannot exceed the number of missiles in the salvo)." CRB p. 162 (emphasis added).[/quote]

Is that errata? It is NOT in the book I have seen.
DickTurpin wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:03 am
... salvos larger than 30-50 missiles are usually a huge waste of money unless the target has truly formidable defenses. Getting a +1,000 DM for salvo size guarantees a hit and huge damage, but only Cruiser sized ships and above really rate that kind of attack. Salvo sizes should be doubled if missiles (not torpedoes) are shot from Distant range to account for missiles lost due to guidance and motor problems.
I came to Traveller through TCS (Trillion Credit Squadron), which I have said elsewhere. Salvo sizes of 1,000 seem small :-)
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby DickTurpin » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:29 am

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:15 am
DickTurpin wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:03 am

Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles.
". . . damage is then multiplied by the Effect of the attack roll (the Effect cannot exceed the number of missiles in the salvo)." CRB p. 162 (emphasis added).
Is that errata? It is NOT in the book I have seen.
[/quote]

Nope, 2nd edition Core Rule Book. Page 162, under the Impact heading. It is the last sentence in the first paragraph (bottom of the page, left hand column).
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby baithammer » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:29 am

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles. A +3 effect roll from a single missile salvo is x3 damage. Missiles seem the only useful damage source for heavily armored ships in core rules, and they also seem highly unpredictable.
Armour effects the base roll, point defense defense reduces the number of missile and EW is similar in nature to the point defense.
Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Considering missiles. There are many "per salvo" rules but salvo size scales steeply and these rules don't. 4 triple turret has a salvo weight of 12, but the capital in the Naval Adventures has a salvo of 2,880 yet it's still one salvo.
Salvos are for capital ship and large scale battles so simplifies combat with a few wrinkles.
Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Electronic warfare (EW) can target each salvo only 1x per round no matter how sensor operators are available. Is this per ship? I don't really care if 6 missiles from a 3,000 missile salvo are dropped. Did we miss an EW rule, or it's ineffective?
Squadrons of ships group missiles / torpedoes as a single salvo, independent ships have their own salvos.

Also a neat little trick if your ship has enough bandwidth.
The Broad Spectrum EW package continuously scans for
hostile missile launches and automatically sends disruptive
signals known to interfere with the guidance systems of
all common missiles.

... Each salvo can still only be subjected to one
electronic warfare action, so manual attempts to disrupt
salvoes should be performed beforehand.
Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Missile to hit is -6 at long range. Again salvo scaling. Effective vs 12, but not 3000.
Different scale of play.
Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Bays get additional effects, and I think I asked this before, but how does this apply to missiles where the warheads are all combined? How do you resolve an attack that combines missile bays and turrets - and why are 12 misiles from turrets different from 12 missiles from a bay?
Missile / Torpedo Bays don't get the bay bonuses.
(missile and
torpedo salvoes do not use these modifiers).
Missiles / Torpedoes are grouped together as a single salvo when operating at Capital Ship level.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:32 am

baithammer wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:29 am
Salvos are for capital ship and large scale battles so simplifies combat with a few wrinkles.
Are you saying you don't use missile salvo rules for smaller combats? So you're rolling each missile (each turret?) individually?

baithammer wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:29 am
Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Missile to hit is -6 at long range. Again salvo scaling. Effective vs 12, but not 3000.
Different scale of play.
Are you saying there's a different set of rules we've missed - or explaining why you feel the rule is jutisfied?

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:30 am
Bays get additional effects, and I think I asked this before, but how does this apply to missiles where the warheads are all combined? How do you resolve an attack that combines missile bays and turrets - and why are 12 misiles from turrets different from 12 missiles from a bay?
Missile / Torpedo Bays don't get the bay bonuses.
(missile and
torpedo salvoes do not use these modifiers).
[/quote]

What about the critial hit modifiers when large ships take damage from bays? ISTR that's in a separate section and there's nothing about missiles in it.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:50 am

Started coding a combat resolver for computer. Realised while writing up the formulas, a 6d particle bay does 6d and a missile bay will do probably 5d x 24 missiles. Cover everything in missile launchers is good, right?
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:45 am

Moppy wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:50 am
Started coding a combat resolver for computer. Realised while writing up the formulas, a 6d particle bay does 6d and a missile bay will do probably 5d x 24 missiles. Cover everything in missile launchers is good, right?
Until you run out of ammo - or the opponent is prepared for missile swarms and have their ships equipped to defeat massive salvoes...

The cost per missile volley should also be considered, plus it’s easier to defend against missiles than most other bay weapons.

Also, the small missile bay fires 12 missiles, not 24.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:21 pm

Moppy wrote: Missiles are +salvo size to hit, then do (weapon-armor)*effect roll. Effect multiplication doesn't seem to be capped at the number of missiles. A +3 effect roll from a single missile salvo is x3 damage. Missiles seem the only useful damage source for heavily armored ships in core rules, and they also seem highly unpredictable.
Conceptually the Effect of the attack roll is the number of missiles that hit. For simplicity we only roll for damage once and apply to all missiles, hence multiply by Effect.

Missiles intentionally do the most damage, but are sensitive to defences.

Don't underestimate lasers; diligently stack up DMs and they will do decent damage even against heavy armour. Against light armour they are very size/cost-effective. And they kill missiles...


Moppy wrote: Considering missiles. There are many "per salvo" rules but salvo size scales steeply and these rules don't. 4 triple turret has a salvo weight of 12, but the capital in the Naval Adventures has a salvo of 2,880 yet it's still one salvo.

Electronic warfare (EW) can target each salvo only 1x per round no matter how sensor operators are available. Is this per ship? I don't really care if 6 missiles from a 3,000 missile salvo are dropped. Did we miss an EW rule, or it's ineffective?
Agreed. Large salvoes work somewhat differently, basically only counteracted by PD.

EW is max once per salvo per round, regardless of how many ships or operators you have. And additionally limited by one action per sensor operator.

But look at the added options in the Element Class Cruiser before you write off EW.

Moppy wrote: Missile to hit is -6 at long range. Again salvo scaling. Effective vs 12, but not 3000.
Note that HG added:
HG, p30: Missile Flight Times wrote:In addition, when huge salvoes of missiles are in flight, problems with guidance and motor systems can be come more apparent. Halve the number of missiles within a salvo for every full 5 rounds of travel.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:47 pm

Moppy wrote: Started coding a combat resolver for computer. Realised while writing up the formulas, a 6d particle bay does 6d and a missile bay will do probably 5d x 24 missiles. Cover everything in missile launchers is good, right?
Few ships will have bays on every hardpoint.

100 Dt (or 70 Dt) worth of bay will launch 24 missiles, basically stopped by ~4 laser turrets à ~6 Dt ≈ 24 Dt worth of lasers.


I believe the point with missiles is to launch massive salvoes, small salvoes will just be killed by PD. So either go all out for max missiles on all hardpoints, or none at all. If you can launch really massive salvoes, torpedoes are more economical than missiles.


In order to overwhelm competent PD you generally have to make sure several salvoes arrive at the same time, by coordinating missiles with different speeds launched on different turns.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:10 pm

I am running combat simulations now for various ship designs.

There is a maxed out launchers build in there, that has missile barbettes and bays on.

What do I take as the average gunnery skill?

The next stage is to get this installable by end users, to build something that design ships itself, and strategy - right now I have to predetermine what % of shots to hold for point defense, and so forth.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Old School » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:51 pm

Missiles in large numbers are dominant in many situations, but not all. It’s appropriate that a smaller ship facing hundreds of missiles is totally screwed. Keep in mind that the armor deduction comes before the effect multiplier, so heavy armor will make a tremendous difference. A ship with Armor 14 or 15 has a good chance to take zero damage even from any number of standard missiles. This brings the heavier energy weapons, better missiles, and torpedoes into relevance. Also means that standard capital ship designs should put more focus on armor.

At the capital ship level, there will also be hundreds of beam lasers cutting down incoming missiles.

All that said, playing larger ship battles have never been part of any campaign I’ve taken part in. Have any of you ever sat down and made all the attack rolls for a Tigress? Maybe the Element Cruisers Naval Campaigns will create some opportunities, but using the standard rules with cruiser and above ships quickly becomes drudgery.

Capital ships battles have their own combat rules in High Guard. Of course, these are just as much a head scratcher as the standard combat rules. Compare the power of a Spinal Mount Weapon to an equivalent number of bays in the standard combat rules, and then do the same using the capital ship battle rules. Spinal Mounts go from massively underpowered to massively overpowered in the blink of an eye.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Old School » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:54 pm

Moppy, if you’re really going to build a full simulation, it would be cool to see the capital ship rules simulations compared to the regular rules simulations.

It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the numbers, but I had the impression at the time thst spinal mounts needed to have their damage increased by 10X in the regular rules and reduced by a factor of 10 on the capital ship rules.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:59 pm

Old School wrote: Capital ships battles have their own combat rules in High Guard. Of course, these are just as much a head scratcher as the standard combat rules. Compare the power of a Spinal Mount Weapon to an equivalent number of bays in the standard combat rules, and then do the same using the capital ship battle rules. Spinal Mounts go from massively underpowered to massively overpowered in the blink of an eye.
Spinals always does more damage:
HG, p28 wrote:While spinal weapons are classed as Destructive, they are by far the most potent weapons that can be installed on a ship. Instead of multiplying the damage by 10, as is normal for a Destructive weapon, spinal mounts multiply it by 1,000!
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:17 pm

Moppy wrote: What do I take as the average gunnery skill?
I generally use skill-2, charDM +1 for normal professional military crew. For warships from competent navies I also assume skill augmentation (+1) and expert system support (+1) and perhaps DEX/INT/EDU augmentation (+1) despite expense.

So a total skill of 6 = 2[skill] +1[char] +1[aug] +1[expert] +1[char aug].

Note that the total skill is used defensively too, e.g. with Evasive Action.

Normal small ship civilians only use about skill-2.

Moppy wrote: The next stage is to get this installable by end users, to build something that design ships itself, and strategy - right now I have to predetermine what % of shots to hold for point defense, and so forth.
I would start with a simple priority for lasers:
1: Fighters in dogfight
2: Missiles about to attack
3: Fighters
4: Ships

The priority between fighters and missiles should be determined by which is the biggest immediate threat.

But this is not a trivial choice. E.g. lightly armoured ships might be the better target than heavily armoured fighters in some situations.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby paltrysum » Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:35 pm

Moppy wrote: I generally use skill-2, charDM +1 for normal professional military crew. For warships from competent navies I also assume skill augmentation (+1) and expert system support (+1) and perhaps DEX/INT/EDU augmentation (+1) despite expense.
Stealthed ships won't be hiding from a Sensor Op with those qualifications.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Old School » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:09 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:59 pm

Spinals always does more damage:
HG, p28 wrote:While spinal weapons are classed as Destructive, they are by far the most potent weapons that can be installed on a ship. Instead of multiplying the damage by 10, as is normal for a Destructive weapon, spinal mounts multiply it by 1,000!
Thanks. I misunderstood what that text was trying to say. Went back and looked at the core rulebook destructive description and now it makes sense. Spinal weapons are dice x1000. Still should have put that in the table (yes, I’m whining).

So instead of being massively underpowered, spinal weapons are massively overpowered, as they are in the capital ship combat rules.

A hit from a double sized meson spinal weapon, such as those installed in the 50,000 ton planetoid monitor (p. 184), the 50,000 ton strike cruiser (p. 188), and the 75,000 ton heavy cruiser (p. 196), has a 50/50 chance of completely destroying a 200,000 ton plankwell (p. 208). Two 75,000 ton strike carriers (p.200) have a fighting chance to beat a 500,000 ton Tigress. They only need to land three shots before the Tigress hits both of them.

Seems a bit much, doesn’t it?
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:23 pm

Old School wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:09 pm
A hit from a double sized meson spinal weapon, such as those installed in the 50,000 ton planetoid monitor (p. 184), the 50,000 ton strike cruiser (p. 188), and the 75,000 ton heavy cruiser (p. 196), has a 50/50 chance of completely destroying a 200,000 ton plankwell (p. 208). Two 75,000 ton strike carriers (p.200) have a fighting chance to beat a 500,000 ton Tigress. They only need to land three shots before the Tigress hits both of them.

Seems a bit much, doesn’t it?
A 4DD spinal does 4D × 1000 ≈ 14,000 points of damage. The Plankwell has 146,666 Hull. It takes about 10 hits to kill it.

About 2000 Dt meson screens will stop the attack completely, negating a 12000 Dt spinal.

Spinals do a lot of damage, but they are not invincible.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:31 pm

paltrysum wrote: Stealthed ships won't be hiding from a Sensor Op with those qualifications.
Agreed, unfortunately, but a sensor DM of +6 and a skill of +3 is generally enough to overcome even -8 stealth. The extra skill augmentation is just the nail in the coffin.


I use a negative range DM on the sensor roll to give stealth a chance.
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Re: Core 2 & High Guard 2 rules check - EW, mssiles, armor

Postby Moppy » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:39 pm

At adventure scale, getting a lot more crits than I expected. DMs +0 range, +2 crew and you can crit armor 15 about 1/7 of the time with a triple pulse laser.

Double checking rules:

effect is 2d + crew dm + 2 (pulse) + range dm - 8 (not counting other factors)

damage is 2d + 4 (triple turret) - armor + effect (unless effect < 0, in which case 0)

crit is effect >= 6 and damage > 0

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