Space Combat Hit Location.

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Rerednaw
Stoat
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:23 pm

Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Rerednaw » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:00 am

So the players’ unarmed ship takes a hit to the turret...since no turret exists do you:
Roll again?
Apply straight to hull as if turret is destroyed?
Something else?
Thanks!
Old School
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Old School » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:18 am

I’d roll again
AnotherDilbert
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3933
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:53 am

Quite:
Core, p158 wrote: If a critical hit has been inflicted upon a spacecraft, roll 2D and then consult the Critical Hits Location table. If a particular location does not apply to this spacecraft, roll again.
paltrysum
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 730
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby paltrysum » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:26 pm

Agreed. It hit something. The absence of a turret, jump drive, or other listed location just means the hit struck something else.
My published Traveller adventures on DriveThruRPG:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php ... %20Griffen
Linwood
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Linwood » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:12 am

If you want a quick and dirty answer, simply rule that if the crit is against a system the ship doesn’t have it goes against the the system which takes up the largest share of the ship’s volume.
Galadrion
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:36 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Galadrion » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:04 am

Well, if I needed a quick answer, I'd say that the hit came in on the hull where the turret would be if it was there. Honestly, until there have been some pretty large holes blown in it, the hull is the most likely thing to take the hit anyway.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2934
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:44 am

Rerednaw wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:00 am
So the players’ unarmed ship takes a hit to the turret...since no turret exists do you:
Roll again?
Apply straight to hull as if turret is destroyed?
Something else?
Thanks!
Hits hull instead.
AnotherDilbert
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3933
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:22 am

Automatic Hull criticals are very bad news for small craft. They often have so few Hull points that every damage point is a critical, and they generally lack several categories of equipment. So the risk of crit ripple increases significantly.

Small craft that disintegrate almost automatically when shot at is not desirable IMHO.
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4820
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:03 pm

Nearly all ships set aside hard points for future turrets. So a hull hit seems reasonable in place of a system hit. Or you roll again and ignore systems that were never installed in the first place. It's too easy to give the target ship a miss if the system didn't exist. The exception would be if the hit in question was to a system that was damaged or destroyed by enemy fire. In the case of a damaged system you could have it hit again, slagging it to nothingness. In the short term it's a 'free' hit. In the long term it would have to be fully replaced. A system that was already destroyed this way, hit again, could be called a 'free' hit. But that means the ship in question would have suffered a lot of damage already, plus the cost if they surivive.
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:22 am
Automatic Hull criticals are very bad news for small craft. They often have so few Hull points that every damage point is a critical, and they generally lack several categories of equipment. So the risk of crit ripple increases significantly.

Small craft that disintegrate almost automatically when shot at is not desirable IMHO.
That's the drawback of taking a tiny craft into combat (much like it's the drawback of taking a 500Dton ship up against a 10k Dton cruiser. Which is why small craft have advantages when it comes to hitting them to start - but the ability to absorb damage should never be one of them.
Old School
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Old School » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:41 pm

Small craft that disintegrate almost automatically when shot at is not desirable IMHO.
I agree with the RAW that the scenario presented should be a re-roll rather than a hull critical hit, but I also see nothing wrong with small craft being quite fragile in combat. Size should be an extreme advantage. If anything small craft are overpowered, not underpowered, in Mongoose rules.

Unarmored small craft that find themselves in combat should be destroyed very easily. Armored craft have a chance, but when its penetrated, it should be very bad news.
AnotherDilbert
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3933
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:37 pm

Unarmoured small craft are extremely fragile and will generally be destroyed by a single hit from a space scale weapon, with or without the proposed house-rule.

But with the house-rule a single shot from a handgun, e.g. a revolver, has a high likelihood of not just incapacitating the craft, but destroying it beyond hope of repair.

Personally I find spacecraft that regularly explodes or simply disintegrates from a single 9 mm bullet a bit too ludicrous.
Linwood
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Linwood » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:36 am

That’s why I house-ruled that most small arms do no damage to a spacecraft. Grenades and heavy military arms yes; pistols no.
AnotherDilbert
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3933
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:35 pm

I dislike blanket bans.

I only dislike the "automatically destroyed" part, not the "can take damage" part. It's only entirely unarmoured craft that are vulnerable, even a point or two of armour helps a lot against small arms.

I see it as a great feature that the systems are connected, from the personal scale to the spacecraft scale.
arcador
Banded Mongoose
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:34 pm

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby arcador » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:28 am

Yes, I play that, theoretically, a good shot (high dmg roll) from a small arm can do 1 dmg to an unarmored craft (as RAW). To my memory Effect is lost in scaling the damage. I might be wrong.

10 dton ship has 4 Hull points. This means it suffers 2 criticals from 1 dmg. Hull hit will most likely be fatal, and chances of rolling 7 are pretty high.

I see it as more fragile than a small truck since a truck won't decompress rapidly from one bullet hole in the wrong place.

Keep in mind I allow this check in two conditions - the attacker is aiming at the ship; or the attacker is in the ship discharging a weapon (and missing). Then I roll chance if he hits something important (1/6) and if, then dmg roll to see if it actually does dmg.
Linwood
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Linwood » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:39 am

arcador wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:28 am
I see it as more fragile than a small truck since a truck won't decompress rapidly from one bullet hole in the wrong place..
I think that goes to just what a structure point represents. I had in mind that it represents something more substantial than a simple air leak - some element of the design that carries the load.

I like your system for determining if small-arms fire damages something important. A 1 of 6 chance intuitively feels about right. Maybe modify it up or down depending on the nature of the vessel and where it’s hit (assuming the shot was aimed at a specific area or within a given compartment.
Moppy
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:42 pm

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Moppy » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:53 am

Regarding "explosive" decompression, I don't understand why they don't decompress before combat and put on vaccsuits. No explosive decompression, no fires, and explosions lose their pressure wave.
Linwood
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Linwood » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:42 am

Hmmm...

I don’t the MGT2 rules take that into account. i’m going to think about a house rule for that. Maybe a reduction in damage from crew hits?
AnotherDilbert
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3933
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:49 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:39 am

Moppy wrote: Regarding "explosive" decompression, ...
CT noted this,
LBB2 wrote: Decompression: Starships (and non-starships) depressurize their interiors before combat whenever possible; the passengers and crew resorting to vacc suits for safety and comfort.

Mongoose has better hulls?
High Guard, p10 wrote: A self-sealing hull automatically repairs minor breaches such as micrometeoroid impacts, and prevents hull hits causing explosive decompression.
Linwood
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 am

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby Linwood » Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:47 pm

Excellent - one less house rule to puzzle out! Thanks AnotherDilbert!
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4820
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Space Combat Hit Location.

Postby phavoc » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:29 pm

Moppy wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:53 am
Regarding "explosive" decompression, I don't understand why they don't decompress before combat and put on vaccsuits. No explosive decompression, no fires, and explosions lose their pressure wave.
Military ships should, by default, decompress in the expectation of hull and interior damage. You would still have some compartments that would retain their atmospheres, like the medical section if the ship is large enough to have one because an atmospheric environment will be required for medical treatment. They may set up temporary airlocks, if they aren't already in place, to keep the atmosphere. And the section may have it's own emergency systems as well to protect casualties. Smaller ships might use the messhall or some other larger area to do the same. Really small ships though wouldn't be able to do much more than keep a stateroom or other compartment under pressure if needed.

As far as vacsuits, yeah, all crew should be in them on a warship once it goes to general quarters in anticipation of combat. A suit will give them a better chance (and also there is no danger of being sucked out. Even in a suit your chances are going to be small of surviving) of making it through. Though this assumes a suit that is of very reasonable size, without a large bulky backpack or chestpack with life support. They still have to do their jobs, so the suits need to reflect this. While the rule book says that uniforms can be space suits, the writer didn't quite know what they were talking about. A space suit has to be airtight, thus your uniform would not breathe. A person would overheat and sweat a lot. And it would be very uncomfortable and not very practical. Sure, using 52nd tech maybe your uniform carries built-in cooling and heating elements that regulates your temperature. But that's just more hand wavium to, in my opinion, fill in a logical hole. It would be much more believable and practical to call a uniform clothing and leave space suits to being space suits. It would be easier to have air stored in vacuoles within the suit itself, to have carbon nanotubes provide structure and power, and minimize your life support apparatus - all of which is more believable than just saying your uniform is a spacesuit.

Self-sealing hulls are quite possible. That technology was used in WW2 for aircraft fuel tanks. But keep in mind there certainly is a limit to how much damage they can deal with. Tanks work (self-sealing tanks today that is) by surrounding the tank itself with materials that swell when exposed to fuel. It also acts as insulation too. So while it might protect you from a .50cal round, hits in the same area, or a hole from say a 20mm, that was the upper limit of what it could be expected to handle. Hits in the same location will overwhelm the capabilities of the self-sealing. You might be able to take a laser hit or three, or say a missile hit. But if you got hit every turn in the same area, or you had a torpedo hit, then no, I'd say your self-sealing would fail and you'd suffer all the negative hits that would normally come.

I'm aware Traveller rules don't take anything like that into account, but it's helpful to know these sorts of things to incorporate into your playing session. It gives the ref a lot more tools with which to work with, and it gives the players more opportunities to roll play their characters in a dangerous environment. But if your players just wanna roll dice and live or die by them, then the ref can play that way too. But to me that's not RPGing.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests