High Guard - Errors?

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snrdg121408
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:14 am

Evening PST DivineWrath
DivineWrath wrote:Its been a while. I've analyzed more ships.

ASTEROID SHIP
J-Drive should be 12.5 tons, not 13.
No fusion P-Plant ratings given. Assuming TL 12, output 120. (It fits).
Software and Staterooms got mixed into the same group.
I would prefer it if the ship mentions what kind of docking space is used. Next line, what kind of ship fits in it.
Price is 61.956 MCr, not 61.96. I appears that it got rounded to 2 decimal places.
From the details on PDF HG 2e p. 128

Rock is a 300-ton asteroid ship. The vessel is a minimal configuration craft intended as an economical transportation system between stars, and is ideal for the wanderer, the researcher, the casual Traveller, and the clandestine observer (this last term translates as spy or agent).

If the Rock is being used by a researcher then the inclusion of the component on p. 46 of HG 2e PDF of Library makes sense as detailed in the following information:

Library (TL8)
A library room contains computer files as well as lecterns, display screens, holotanks and perhaps even hard copies of books. A good library is useful for both research and passing time in jump space. Having a library on board a ship grants DM+1 on any EDU check made when training for new skills in jump space or other periods of extended inactivity.

A library consumes 4 tons and costs MCr4.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:55 am

snrdg121408 wrote:If the Rock is being used by a researcher then the inclusion of the component on p. 46 of HG 2e PDF of Library makes sense as detailed in the following information:
The original ship makes mention of a library so one was included in this version.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:56 pm

Morning PST AndrewW,
AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:If the Rock is being used by a researcher then the inclusion of the component on p. 46 of HG 2e PDF of Library makes sense as detailed in the following information:
The original ship makes mention of a library so one was included in this version.
Reviewing FFE 003 Adventures 1-13 The Classic Adventures Adventure 6 Expedition to Zhodane 2nd Printing copyright 1981 Ship Supplies pp. 28-29 Item 6.

"Library. In addition to the library program on the ship's computer, the professor maintains an extensive library of books in the lounge aboard the ship. While the topics covered by his references are wide-ranging, the majority of the works are dull texts on the recent advances in sociology. Close examination of some of the references can make the players aware of the extent and long-term continuity of the professor's researches and observations on Zeycude."

Yes, the text for Adventure 6 does mention a library, however the library is a collection of books that is a feature of the compartment/component identified as the lounge and they are listed as part of the ship's supply manifest on p. 29.

Page 27 Item 12. Lounge. Large recreation area with viewing port showing the outside of the ship. Shutters can conceal the ports if desired; they are operated by controls on the bridge or set into the wall next to the port."

CT Adventure 6 details, in my opinion, is not supported by the description on HG 2e PDF 09/01/16 p. 46 for Library (TL8) is not, in my opinion, an accurate representation of the CT Rock's listing of a "library of books".

I have not been able to locate any information on a component/compartment with the title of "Lounge' in HG 2e. There is however a listing of "Recreational Facilities" as ship systems on three of the ship record sheets. Unfortunately, my search of my PDF has not found any more information for "Recreational Facilities" than what is on the ship record sheets.

My recommendations are:

1. Change "Library" to Lounge
2. Change "Library" to Library/Lounge
3. Add a new component or system with the title of Lounge consuming the same tonnage and cost as a Library or follow the same pattern as used for Laboratory.
4. Add details for "Recreational Facilities", which I think might include gym equipment, sport courts for the equivalent of basketball, racquet ball, or other sports.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:24 am

snrdg121408 wrote:CT Adventure 6 details, in my opinion, is not supported by the description on HG 2e PDF 09/01/16 p. 46 for Library (TL8) is not, in my opinion, an accurate representation of the CT Rock's listing of a "library of books".
Serves the same function.
snrdg121408 wrote:I have not been able to locate any information on a component/compartment with the title of "Lounge' in HG 2e. There is however a listing of "Recreational Facilities" as ship systems on three of the ship record sheets. Unfortunately, my search of my PDF has not found any more information for "Recreational Facilities" than what is on the ship record sheets.
Recreational Facilities where included, but then Common Area came along and the two areas served the same function and there wasn't a need for both.
snrdg121408 wrote:4. Add details for "Recreational Facilities", which I think might include gym equipment, sport courts for the equivalent of basketball, racquet ball, or other sports.
Recreational Facilities: The facilities make up parks, pools, theaters and so on, all for the amusement and entertainment of visiting men and women. Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers and costs MCr. 0.1.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:15 am

Hello AndrewW,
AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:CT Adventure 6 details, in my opinion, is not supported by the description on HG 2e PDF 09/01/16 p. 46 for Library (TL8) is not, in my opinion, an accurate representation of the CT Rock's listing of a "library of books".
Serves the same function.
The HG 2e p. 26 description of "Library (TL8)
A library room contains computer files as well as lecterns, display screens, holotanks and perhaps even hard copies of books. A good library is useful for both research and passing time in jump space. Having a library on board a ship grants DM+1 on any
EDU check made when training for new skills in jump space or other periods of extended inactivity.

A library consumes 4 tons and costs MCr4."

In my opinion the MgT HG 2e Library (TL8) is not serving the same function as the CT Adventure 6 detail of
"Page 27 Item 12. Lounge. Large recreation area with viewing port showing the outside of the ship. Shutters can conceal the ports if desired; they are operated by controls on the bridge or set into the wall next to the port."

The CT Adventure 6 Lounge is a recreation area that the Professor has added a library of hard copy books as an addition to the library files on the ship's computer.

I agree that the Lounge will have access using computer terminals and using the equivalent of WI-FI along with the equivalent of a big screen television. The HG 2e Library is not a place I would want to relax in after a watch or twiddling my thumbs will in jump space or transiting of the 100D limit to the nearest gas giant or High Port.

snrdg121408 wrote:I have not been able to locate any information on a component/compartment with the title of "Lounge' in HG 2e. There is however a listing of "Recreational Facilities" as ship systems on three of the ship record sheets. Unfortunately, my search of my PDF has not found any more information for "Recreational Facilities" than what is on the ship record sheets.
Recreational Facilities where included, but then Common Area came along and the two areas served the same function and there wasn't a need for both.
snrdg121408 wrote:4. Add details for "Recreational Facilities", which I think might include gym equipment, sport courts for the equivalent of basketball, racquet ball, or other sports.
Recreational Facilities: The facilities make up parks, pools, theaters and so on, all for the amusement and entertainment of visiting men and women. Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers and costs MCr. 0.1.
Thank you for the clarification that the system titled Common Area and Living Space include Recreational Facilities. After reviewing the details described on HG 2e pp. 21-22 I did find that a lounge is considered a common area.

Unfortunately, I did not find the reference of Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers...." mentioned in

"Common Areas and Living Space
It is common practice to assign an additional amount of tonnage, perhaps equal to a quarter of that used for staterooms, as common areas or general living space. These will typically be recreation area such as a mess, canteen, or lounge and can provide facilities such as parks, pools, theatres and so on, for the amusement and entertainment of visiting crew and passengers.

This is not strictly necessary and ships can and will vary in this allocation, either increasing it to give crews and passengers a more luxurious (or at least more comfortable) journey, or cutting back to give more space to useful components though at a cost of crew comfort.

Common areas cost MCr0.1 per ton."

So far my efforts to find a page indicating that each ton of recreational facilities count as one level of steward has also failed to find a match.

Since in MgT HG 2e a "lounge" is a common area/living space I can have a 4 d-ton CT Adventure 6 lounge at a cost of MCr0.4 versus a 4 d-ton Library with a price tag of MCr4.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:32 am

I'm not sure what the fuss is about with the asteroid ship and the library. The ship has both the free version that comes with the computer, and a physical library that helps with skill training. I don't really care if this ship remains consistent with previous and other versions of Traveller. I only care that this version of the asteroid ship is correct according to the rules it belongs to (and has minimal mess).
AndrewW wrote:Recreational Facilities: The facilities make up parks, pools, theaters and so on, all for the amusement and entertainment of visiting men and women. Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers and costs MCr. 0.1.
Sounds a significantly different than common areas. Common areas has no steward skill or entertainment effect. It merely exists to make the ship look nice.

So you guys dropped it. I guess that means that some ships should be updated to replace Recreational Facilities with Common Areas.
snrdg121408 wrote:Reviewing FFE 003 Adventures 1-13 The Classic Adventures Adventure 6 Expedition to Zhodane 2nd Printing copyright 1981 Ship Supplies pp. 28-29 Item 6.
I don't really care what one book that is over 30 years old said. Let this edition of Traveller be its own thing.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:29 am

snrdg121408 wrote:I agree that the Lounge will have access using computer terminals and using the equivalent of WI-FI along with the equivalent of a big screen television. The HG 2e Library is not a place I would want to relax in after a watch or twiddling my thumbs will in jump space or transiting of the 100D limit to the nearest gas giant or High Port.
There is still one, there's a lounge (part of the common area) and the library is off of that.
snrdg121408 wrote:Unfortunately, I did not find the reference of Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers...." mentioned in
Any reference to recreational facilities can be treated as common area. There wasn't a need to have both. Effectively recreational facilities and common area cost the same but recreational facilities also like the luxuries from the earlier version could also count towards level of steward., so in theory there would have been no reason to use a common area over recreational facilities.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:07 pm

Hello AndrewW,
AndrewW wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:I agree that the Lounge will have access using computer terminals and using the equivalent of WI-FI along with the equivalent of a big screen television. The HG 2e Library is not a place I would want to relax in after a watch or twiddling my thumbs will in jump space or transiting of the 100D limit to the nearest gas giant or High Port.
There is still one, there's a lounge (part of the common area) and the library is off of that.
snrdg121408 wrote:Unfortunately, I did not find the reference of Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers...." mentioned in
Any reference to recreational facilities can be treated as common area. There wasn't a need to have both. Effectively recreational facilities and common area cost the same but recreational facilities also like the luxuries from the earlier version could also count towards level of steward., so in theory there would have been no reason to use a common area over recreational facilities.
In the post made on Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:24 am is the following information
"Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers and costs MCr. 0.1."

The information is not included in the ship system of Common Areas/Living Spaces found on MgT HG 2e pp. 21-22.

Errata suggestion:
Add the reference that "Each ton of Recreational Facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers." to the Common Areas and Living Spaces System description on p. 22.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:43 pm

Hello DivineWrath,
DivineWrath wrote:I'm not sure what the fuss is about with the asteroid ship and the library. The ship has both the free version that comes with the computer, and a physical library that helps with skill training. I don't really care if this ship remains consistent with previous and other versions of Traveller. I only care that this version of the asteroid ship is correct according to the rules it belongs to (and has minimal mess).
Among my odd personality traits is information review when I have source material. My original response was to the comment that the Rock's Ship Record Ship had mixed software with systems. I responded that the Library in the Systems was a physical location and not a program.

In another reply a writer indicated that the Rock had a Library which sent me to my source material for CT Adventure 6 which does state that the Professor has in addition to the library program on the ship's computer a library of books in the Lounge.

The CT Adventure 6 Lounge's details are not the same as the description of the MgT HG 2e Library other than the mention of having or the possibly of having real books.

Another trait is I frequently fall into a cycle of beating a topic beyond a reasonable point, which is illustrated here.
AndrewW wrote:Recreational Facilities: The facilities make up parks, pools, theaters and so on, all for the amusement and entertainment of visiting men and women. Each ton of recreational facilities counts as one level of steward for the purposes of carrying passengers and costs MCr. 0.1.
Sounds a significantly different than common areas. Common areas has no steward skill or entertainment effect. It merely exists to make the ship look nice.

So you guys dropped it. I guess that means that some ships should be updated to replace Recreational Facilities with Common Areas.
snrdg121408 wrote:Reviewing FFE 003 Adventures 1-13 The Classic Adventures Adventure 6 Expedition to Zhodane 2nd Printing copyright 1981 Ship Supplies pp. 28-29 Item 6.
I don't really care what one book that is over 30 years old said. Let this edition of Traveller be its own thing.
As stated earlier when a 30 year old source that is used in the current rule set is mentioned and I have that material I will fact check. In this case the MgT HG 2e Library does not serve the same function as the 30 year old CT Adventure 6 Lounge that has a library of books.

Another trait is I attempt to provide the source of the material I am using in my posts regardless of how out of date they may be.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:12 am

I was a little bit irritated when it sounded like you were trying to imply that the new edition should conform to some old book. I'll just let it go and move on.

As for pointing out source material, I consider it a good trait. Reduces confusion. Sometimes I wish that more people did that.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:26 am

Evening DivineWrath,
DivineWrath wrote:I was a little bit irritated when it sounded like you were trying to imply that the new edition should conform to some old book. I'll just let it go and move on.

As for pointing out source material, I consider it a good trait. Reduces confusion. Sometimes I wish that more people did that.
My apologies for giving the impression that I was suggesting that MgT should conform to some old book. If anything I think overall that Mongoose Publishing so far appears to have done a better job of going from 1e to 2e than CT. I have at least had less of a problem in using HG 2e ship record sheets to step through the Design process.

Of course there are a couple of items that I wish HG 2e had kept from HG 1e.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:59 am

More ships evaulated. Its getting harder as the ships are getting bigger and more complex. Hopefully there isn't much left to do.

MERCENARY CRUISER
The price for Modular Cutter is wrong. My number is 10.287 MCr.
Turrets should be "Triple Turrets (Empty) x8".
No price is given for Evade/1. It should be 1.
Final price is wrong. It should be 305.275 MCr (includes 10% discount).

DESTROYER ESCORT
Chrysanthemum-class
Armor does not factor in reinforced costs. Should it work that way?
P-Plant cost is wrong. It should be 130 MCr.
Bridge size should be 20. Size 40 is for ship sizes of 1001 to 2000 tons.
I can't find recreational facilities as a thing for ships.
However, the stats as it is used for this ship is consistent with common areas.
There is 23 units of unused space.
Final price should be 561.948 MCr (includes 10% discount).

DESTROYER ESCORT
Fer-de-lance-class
The price of the jump drive is wrong. It should be 157.5 MCr.
105 * 80% = 84 ; 84 * 1.5 = 126 ; 126 * 1.25 (high tech) = 157.5
Price for P-Plant should be 130 MCr.
Bridge size should be 20. Size 40 is for ship sizes of 1001 to 2000 tons.
No mention that there are 2 Modular Cutters. The space available and priced used is appropiate for 2 Modular Cutters.
I can't find recreational facilities as a thing for ships.
However, the stats as it is used for this ship is consistent with common areas.
34 units of unused space.
Final price should be 572.197 MCr (includes 10% discount).

EXPRESS BOAT TENDER
Price for single turrets are wrong. It should be 0.4 MCr (0.2 per single turret).
Low Berths are mentioned under systems, but no tonnage or cost is provided. You might want to delete that line.
The price for common areas should be 1.2 MCr.
9.5 units of unused space.
Final price should be 307.575 MCr (includes 10% discount).

COLONIAL CRUISER
Kinunir-class
The stats for M-Drive is wrong. Should be 50 Tons and 100 MCr.
"Double Turret (beam Laser)" has "beam Laser" with a lower case 'b' and a capital 'L'. It looks weird.
I think docking space and ships should be given separate lines.
Price for fuel processors should be 0.25 MCr.
Price for common areas should be 4.6 MCr.
This ship is 26.5 units of tonnage too big.
Final price should be 734.748 MCr (includes 10% discount).

MERCHANT CRUISER
Leviathan-class
I was initially confused by the extra systems until I started reading auxillary bridge and backup computer.
I really recommend that you use such labels more.
Stats for second M-Drive should be 36 tons, 72 MCr.
Can't you stuff up to 3 weapons on fixed mounts? The fixed mounts seem to only have 1 missile rack. Makes a good case example of why I want turrets to say how many weapons it has.
Air/Raft should be 5 tons. (Remember to round up).
Launch price (including docking) should be 15.734 MCr (using my price).
Pinnance price (including docking) should be 19.712 MCr (using my price).
Shuttle price (including docking) should be 41.397 MCr (using my price).
Low Berth is spelled wrong.
Multi-Environment Space is odd. It is listed as having 21 tons, but is priced as though only 1 ton was used.
Looking at the deck plan, I think it might 1 ton.
The price of the Biosphere should be 3.4 MCr.
Jump software should be 0.3 MCr.
1 unit of space is unused. Doesn't factor in changes.
Final price should be 833.043 MCr (includes 10% discount). Might change depending on what is fixed.

DESTROYER
Midu Agasham-class
How to figure out what part of the hull cost is determined by streamlining and reinforced is hard.
Price for the P-Plant should be 400 MCr.
The computer should be 120 MCr.
Small Bay - Particle should be 20 MCr.
Modular Cutter should be 48.08 MCr.
Does not list fuel scoops.
No rating listed for Fuel Processor. Should be 1200 per day.
Jump Control software does not list rating or price. Should be Jump/4 and 0.4 MCr (fits jump drive).
Final price should be 1788.327 MCr (includes 10% discount).

FLEET ESCORT
P.F. Sloan-class
Armor tonnage should be 312.5.
Craft should be 71.111 MCr.
What, fuel scoops but no fuel processors? It needs 2000 to cover its jump needs.
Jump Control. No rating given. Should be Jump/4, 0.4 MCr.
Final price should be 2442.700 MCr (includes 10% discount).

LIGHT CARRIER
Skimkish-class
Armor should be 362.5 tons.
Weapon "Dual turret (Fusion gun) x50" is a dual turret that seems to have 1 fusion gun. Otherwise, its price should be 225 MCr.
Full hanger should be priced 60 MCr.
Jump Control rating not given. Should be Jump-4.
Final price should be 14699.880 MCr (includes 10% discount).

LIGHT CRUISER
Gionetti-class
P-Plant should be priced 2400 MCr.
240 tons is way too low for jump fuel for a vessel of this size. Should be 14490 tons.
Triple Turret (beam laser, accurate, high yield) x50 should be priced as 162.5 MCr.
Price for Modular Cutter and docking space should be 120.185 MCr.
Fuel Processors are wrong. I don't know what it should be since fuel storage is wrong.
The price for stateroom, standard should be 83.5 MCr.
Tonnage is wrong. If you don't add proper fuel storage, its too small. If you add it in, it becomes too big.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:38 am

DivineWrath wrote:Chrysanthemum-class
Armor does not factor in reinforced costs. Should it work that way?
I believe not.
DivineWrath wrote:Midu Agasham-class
How to figure out what part of the hull cost is determined by streamlining and reinforced is hard.
...
Jump Control software does not list rating or price. Should be Jump/4 and 0.4 MCr (fits jump drive).
From what I remember AndrewW has confirmed (for the Heavy Fighter) that it should be 3000 × 0,05 × 1,2[Streamlined] × 1,5[Reinforced] = MCr 270.

Core Computer includes all jump control software.

For cost of hull, streamlining, reinforcement, and armour look at the Heavy Fighter, I believe it's correct.

Hull cost = 50 × MCr 0,05 × 1,2[Streamlined] × 1,5[Reinforced] = MCr 4,5

Armour cost = MCr 4,5[total hull cost] × 15[Armour factor] × 8%[Bonded] = MCr 5,4
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby AndrewW » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:46 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:From what I remember AndrewW has confirmed (for the Heavy Fighter) that it should be 3000 × 0,05 × 1,2[Streamlined] × 1,5[Reinforced] = MCr 270.
Yup.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby DivineWrath » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:08 am

I wasn't aware that computer cores comes with free jump software. I think its an exception too many. These ship creation rules have plenty of exceptions. Its hard to keep tract of them all. Even harder to make spread sheets that can track them all.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby phavoc » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:31 pm

This is why a spreadsheet is pretty invaluable for making spaceships.

If even the publisher can't build them correctly...
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Condottiere » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:34 pm

It's why you recopy the tables at the back of the book, giving both a summary and oversight.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:37 pm

Hello DivineWrath,
DivineWrath wrote:I wasn't aware that computer cores comes with free jump software. I think its an exception too many. These ship creation rules have plenty of exceptions. Its hard to keep tract of them all. Even harder to make spread sheets that can track them all.
I missed the information on HG 2e p. 18 that Computer Cores included all Jump Control Programs. The specific text is below the table. Luckily, another forum member pointed me to the right page.

Included computer software per CRB 2e p. 105 is Interface, and Security/0 additional free software for a ship's computer per CRB 2e p. 151 is Maneuver/0 and Library.

I would like to see an Anti-Hijack/0 program giving TL 9 and 10 spacecraft more protection than Security/0 until TL 11.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby steve98052 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:06 am

Nerhesi wrote:. . . If I was given a carte blanch to create/develop a space opera system, would the result be different? You can be 1000% sure of that.
. . . adding in defensive shields (not just black globes), . . .
I think the classic books said that shields other than black globe existed, but no rules were ever published.
phavoc wrote:
snrdg121408 wrote:. . .
A bit off-topic the on-line magazine Freelance Traveller for . . .
I have yet to see a review by Megan that is NOT positive or positively gushing. But she's a "featured" reviewer for DTRPG, not an actual purchaser.
Maybe they are always favorable with the reviews, but one cool thing about Freelance Traveller is that it's been around for decades. There's a lot of cool stuff there.

- - -

In reply to nothing in particular here:

A lot of ships get a class discount for building multiples of the same general design. That should never apply to planetoid ships, or at best only very rarely, with planetoids selected very carefully for nearly exact size and shape.
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Re: High Guard - Errors?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:02 pm

The components would be standardized for the class, the issue might be that odd sized hulls would force ad hoc arrangements of equipment.

But essentially, for ordinary planetoids, you have twenty percent wastage calculated in, and most of the guts would be within the scooped out interior.

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