Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

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Condottiere
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:51 pm

If they're using the same sized missiles, then their performance should be the same.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:01 pm

Condottiere wrote:If they're using the same sized missiles, then their performance should be the same.
Performance is the same. The size of the barbette/turret is not. Hence - less missiles stored.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:07 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:A 5t barbette is 5t. If you are telling me that a 5 dT barbette is smaller than an identical 5 dT barbette on a ship, I will question your logic.
If you are telling me that this is the way it is, and will remain that way, I will accept that and shut up.
I think I may have to question your logic here.. but I think you've missed something more like it :)

A 5 dt particle barbette takes 12 power, and does 4D with a range of very long.
a 5 dt firmpoint particle barbette takes 9 power, does 4D with a range of Close.

Therefore they are NOT identical. The difference isn't just a "sorry we only put weaker versions on fighters". No, there is something different about them.

They take up the same SPACE on the INSIDE of the ship - who knows what is sticking out. This is the same logic that states a triple turret with 3 missile rack is the same SPACE as a single launcher with 1 missile rack. Obviously they differ somehow despite being the same "size" for construction purposes. The same logic would be use for firmpoints. Yes they consume the same size "internally" - but rather than having something of size x sticking out, you have something of 1/3x sticking out.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:16 pm

phavoc wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:They are technically smaller as you are able to fit one "missile rack" for example on a firmpoint. A firmpoint is every 35 tons not 100. So you're fitting a weapon in 1/3rd the normal allowable space.

So therefore it is a "smaller thing". That means less range for direct fire weapons.. and I guess, less "missiles stored" for a missile/torp weapon.
But that's not the issue here.
Then what is? The firmpoint launcher holds less missiles. If you want to store more - allocate extra space for ammunition as per normal.
phavoc wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote:A 5t barbette is 5t. If you are telling me that a 5 dT barbette is smaller than an identical 5 dT barbette on a ship, I will question your logic.
If you are telling me that this is the way it is, and will remain that way, I will accept that and shut up.
Right, that's the same logic I would be using. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck regardless of size, then a duck is the equivalent of a goose....? No, it should be one is a duck and one is a goose. But as laid out the rules call both of them ducks but treat them differently. And therein lies the problem as pointed out.

And where I you, I'd still keep quacking (to keep the fowl analogy going). This seems like a clear miss as explained. IF the intent is to nerf the fighter version, fine, but please clean up the descriptions and fix it so it doesn't leave you scratching your head in confusion.
We know for a fact that this is how firmpoint work guys. They are identical INTERNAL size, for inferior effect. I'm not quite sure what is the surprise now?
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:18 pm

I'm hearing "accept it and shut up"; I'll shut up.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:22 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:I'm hearing "accept it and shut up"; I'll shut up.
Then you've definitely made a lapse in logic at least there, if not on the actual rules. But perhaps I misunderstood your point? To me the rules are crystal clear.

Missile Barbettes launch 5 missiles a turn, and hold 25.
Firmpoint missile barbettes launch 5 missiles a turn, and hold 8.
12 Missiles consume 1 ton.

Internal space has never been an indication of external space. Example: Triple missile turret holds 36 missiles for 1 dton VS A single missile turret holds 12 missiles for 1 dton as well. So it seems perfectly logical, that two items taking up 5 tons of internal space... do not have the same performance even though they may be the some "base weapon". This is especially true considering we know firmpoint direct fire weapons, take up the same space, but are also "different".
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby phavoc » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:42 pm

The problem is the math doesn't add up.

Did I miss the memo where a turret has a Tardis-style ammunition magazine? 12 missiles = 1Dton. 36 missiles = 3 Dtons. A triple turrest = 1 ton. The machinery and loading mechanisms have to account for some of the space, but where is all that extra free space coming from??

(I don't have my books with me)
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:51 pm

Jesus Christ guys - who are you? Where did the real phavoc and AnotherDilbert go? :)

Since who knows when Traveller has always indicates that dtons of space is INTERNAL space requirements. What is on the outside is not accounted for. It's sticking out...

This is how turrets have always worked. Why else do you think a Triple Pulse Laser Turret takes up the some "space" as a Single Pulse Laser Turret? We dont care what is on the outside.

This is the same logic that applies to firmpoints. They're all the same tonnage.. but somehow their performance is different. For Direct Fire weapons it is range, for Missile Weapons it is ammunition stored (which is way more minor than direct fire range problems). How is this not logically sound? It using the same internal consistency that has been around for .. decades in traveller.

I'm really starting to worry that I'm missing something here..
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:00 pm

Nerhesi wrote: Example: Triple missile turret holds 36 missiles
Do they? I thought the text said that any turret fitted with (one or more) missile tubes include space for 12 missiles, not 12 missiles per launcher?
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:36 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Nerhesi wrote: Example: Triple missile turret holds 36 missiles
Do they? I thought the text said that any turret fitted with (one or more) missile tubes include space for 12 missiles, not 12 missiles per launcher?
Not near my books anymore - but even a simpler example gents:

Triple pulse laser - 1 dton.
Single Pulse laser - 1 dton.

Fixed mount = 0 dton.

All exampls of external space being variable, and not accounted for?
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:34 pm

phavoc wrote:Did I miss the memo where a turret has a Tardis-style ammunition magazine? 12 missiles = 1Dton. 36 missiles = 3 Dtons. A triple turrest = 1 ton. The machinery and loading mechanisms have to account for some of the space, but where is all that extra free space coming from??
I have no idea.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:37 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Do they? I thought the text said that any turret fitted with (one or more) missile tubes include space for 12 missiles, not 12 missiles per launcher?
High Guard Page: 27 wrote:Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missile racks on Firmpoints hold four missiles).
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:48 pm

Huh, that's different from he rulebook:
rulebook, p. 157 wrote:Each turret with one
or more missile racks holds 12 missiles and costs Cr250000 to refill.
My understanding from the main book was that each turret holds 12 missiles, not 12 per launcher for up to 36 missiles. The imperium must be employing tardis technology :)
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:20 pm

Ok so apparently the rulebook and highguard conflict there. Or is it perhaps because Core rulebook has no double/triple missile turrets?

What doesn't conflict though is the fact that weapon with 3 pulse lasers is the same size as one with 1 pulse laser, or one with a pulse laser, a beam laser and a missile turret. Unless there is another conflict hidden somehwere..
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:40 pm

Core, p157 wrote:Each turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles and costs Cr250000 to refill.
HG, p27 wrote:Each missile rack holds 12 missiles ...
Cheap missiles in Core!
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:44 pm

Nerhesi wrote:What doesn't conflict though is the fact that weapon with 3 pulse lasers is the same size as one with 1 pulse laser, or one with a pulse laser, a beam laser and a missile turret.
Turrets where once upon a time specifically made to fit in a standard socket, hence all the same size. A single turret were a cheap starter turret for cash-strapped adventurers wanting some armament for their Free Trader...
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:55 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:What doesn't conflict though is the fact that weapon with 3 pulse lasers is the same size as one with 1 pulse laser, or one with a pulse laser, a beam laser and a missile turret.
Turrets where once upon a time specifically made to fit in a standard socket, hence all the same size. A single turret were a cheap starter turret for cash-strapped adventurers wanting some armament for their Free Trader...
I absolutely agree here AnotherDilbert. They fit in a standard socket.

But outside the ship, the turret could be 3-times larger. For example, a triple pulse vs a single pulse.
So what if it is a 3-times larger missile turret? When did we make the assumption that all the missiles were stored internally? Infact - I would think that is NOT the case as the 1-dton in almost all (if not all) starship plans I've seen, is simply the "turret-seat/control area". Not the stacked missile.

Hence my assumption (and according to high-guard it seems to be the case), that the missile were stored externally. All... some.. who knows.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby AndrewW » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:00 am

Nerhesi wrote:When did we make the assumption that all the missiles were stored internally? Infact - I would think that is NOT the case as the 1-dton in almost all (if not all) starship plans I've seen, is simply the "turret-seat/control area". Not the stacked missile.
A lot of deck plans have the access hatch as .5-dtons. Which is just an indicator where the access is located, not the generally not shown internal space space a turret requires.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Nerhesi » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:40 am

AndrewW wrote:
Nerhesi wrote:When did we make the assumption that all the missiles were stored internally? Infact - I would think that is NOT the case as the 1-dton in almost all (if not all) starship plans I've seen, is simply the "turret-seat/control area". Not the stacked missile.
A lot of deck plans have the access hatch as .5-dtons. Which is just an indicator where the access is located, not the generally not shown internal space space a turret requires.
Yeah - usually it is just 1 square indicating where the "dude" is.
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Re: Why are fighter mounted missile barbettes crippled?

Postby Chas » Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:37 am

For missile and torpedo barbettes in fighter I'm quite happy with the rules, except that missiles might get a few more, it wouldn't be a reach to at least give them 10 internally so you have 3 full salvos with 5 on the launchers. You get the equivalent of a barbette allowing you to use torpedoes, and you still get your 5 missile launch/turn from a missile barbette - along with getting another firmpoint for free if you so choose. In return you have to bit the bullet a little in accepting a slightly smaller tonnage of ammunition. Which is quite reasonable, in fact you're still winning. Especially with regards to other barbette to firmpoint weapon designs with their range crimp.

And the logical explanation I provided before in needing more space to make an effective hardpoint for the fighter barbette is still good if you require that.

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