Lack of Fuel

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
vladthemad
Mongoose
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:33 am

Lack of Fuel

Postby vladthemad » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:25 am

Anyone else notice that all the ships have only a 2 week operational range? That seems pretty low.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2916
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:05 am

vladthemad wrote:Anyone else notice that all the ships have only a 2 week operational range? That seems pretty low.
That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4252
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby AndrewW » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:25 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
Shouldn't be. The ship stuff should be all together in High Guard. Not counting operational stuff.
-Daniel-
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:20 pm
Location: Burbank, CA

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby -Daniel- » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:29 am

AndrewW wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
Shouldn't be. The ship stuff should be all together in High Guard. Not counting operational stuff.
I agree. If you are pushing the reset button, then do it and get organized at that time. All ship options and rules should be in High Guard. Not scattered. Otherwise you invalidate the reasons for not including the ship design rules in the core book.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4252
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby AndrewW » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:35 am

-Daniel- wrote:I agree. If you are pushing the reset button, then do it and get organized at that time. All ship options and rules should be in High Guard. Not scattered. Otherwise you invalidate the reasons for not including the ship design rules in the core book.
That's the current plan (or at least the last I heard) it should all be going into High Guard.

Currently stuff is scattered across a multitude of books, the majority of the options spread out across the various books have been brought together into High Guard.

Doesn't entirely invalidate, one consideration was space.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2916
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:47 am

AndrewW wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
Shouldn't be. The ship stuff should be all together in High Guard. Not counting operational stuff.
High Guard is a Traveller setting book. I'm talking about the ships for other settings. The hyper and warp drive ships. The ultra TL stuff, etc. Unless Matthew has decided not to include such options in any core book.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
AndrewW
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4252
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby AndrewW » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:48 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:High Guard is a Traveller setting book. I'm talking about the ships for other settings. The hyper and warp drive ships. The ultra TL stuff, etc. Unless Matthew has decided not to include such options.
So am I. They are still included and are currently planned to be included within High Guard.
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 2916
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:58 am

AndrewW wrote:So am I. They are still included and are currently planned to be included within High Guard.
Ok. Found them. They were in another chapter, mixed in with Imperial Navy stuff.
AKAramis
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1440
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:57 am
Location: Eagle River, Alaska, USA
Contact:

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby AKAramis » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:39 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
vladthemad wrote:Anyone else notice that all the ships have only a 2 week operational range? That seems pretty low.
That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
No, it's a Matthew/Mongoose thing.

Almost all the rest of the Traveller editions, 4 weeks is standard.
-AKAramis
==================================================
Never catch a tiger by the tail...
... unless it is sedated or dead.
==================================================
http://aramis.hostman.us
vladthemad
Mongoose
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:33 am

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby vladthemad » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:20 am

I can't say I've seen Classic, Mega Traveller, or TNE (Yeah, we played it, so what!) in nearly twenty years but I don't ever recall running that lean on fuel back then. Interestingly, I checked and saw that in the old core rule book by Mongoose there were some that also had 2 weeks that I hadn't recalled. I'm surprised, as it seems most of the ships in the supplements universally had 4 weeks and up.
ShawnDriscoll wrote: That is a Traveller Universe setting thing. Part of what makes Traveller Traveller. Some players might have issue with it being changed. Expect to see other options in the Companion core book for ships. Lots.
The way ships work in the new rules has already deviated greatly from previous versions, no reason to stop at fuel limits...and as noted by AKAramis:
AKAramis wrote: No, it's a Matthew/Mongoose thing.

Almost all the rest of the Traveller editions, 4 weeks is standard.
At any rate, we're here to fix things and I think this aught to be fixed. It's a pretty minor change, and not fixing it makes space travel absurdly risky. Inaccurate jumps will get you killed. I think 4 weeks is a good bare minimum for all jump capable ships with rare exception. How does everyone else feel about it?
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4768
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby phavoc » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:43 am

Since we are now getting into energy points, isn't this the perfect time to now create a fuel consumption rule? The idea that your fusion plant is either ON or OFF with no middle ground seems ripe for change. It's not like this hasn't been debated through all the editions.....
Captain Jonah
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1758
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby Captain Jonah » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:26 pm

phavoc wrote:Since we are now getting into energy points, isn't this the perfect time to now create a fuel consumption rule? The idea that your fusion plant is either ON or OFF with no middle ground seems ripe for change. It's not like this hasn't been debated through all the editions.....
Shouldn't be to hard to do a simple X power uses Y fuel per week for the plants since you don't need to use the M drive in jump or the J drive in real space.

Two weeks is too little, very dangerous. Maybe the Imperium doesn't have Health and Safety rules and is happy to have entire ships suffocate when they run out of fuel after a week.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7334
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby Condottiere » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:37 pm

Needs more cowbell, or fuel allocation for the power plant, Health and safety may state it has to be four thirds of power plant tonnage, while more fringe designers and operators might allocate only ten days worth.
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4768
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby phavoc » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:48 pm

I was looking at the fuel issue in real-world ships. Destroyers and frigates have fuel is listed with a 'cruising' speed much less than full speed. Some have a range of 8-10,000 nautical miles at say 15 knots. But when you change that to say 27-28 knots, that range drops down a LOT.

So it would be nice to see some sort of formula or rule that sets a lower-output from your reactor in exchange for a longer operational period. Right now fuel calculations are based on 100% power output all the time, and with the change to energy points from a reactor, there should be some way to regulate just how much power is being generated.
vladthemad
Mongoose
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:33 am

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby vladthemad » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:18 am

Hmm...while I like the idea of fuel consumption (with all the trails and tribulations it could bring!), it's more work load on a new player and ref, so maybe (if it isn't already) add it to High Guard instead and just fix the current ships in the Core Rule book?
phavoc
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 4768
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:13 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby phavoc » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:02 am

vladthemad wrote:Hmm...while I like the idea of fuel consumption (with all the trails and tribulations it could bring!), it's more work load on a new player and ref, so maybe (if it isn't already) add it to High Guard instead and just fix the current ships in the Core Rule book?
It could be as easy as saying for every 10% of power output you lower your reactor by, you reduce your fuel consumption by 10%. Then, if it becomes an issue, it's easy enough to figure out and you don't need to be playing spreadsheets in space. But since we already keep track of all other kinds of things, it's not like it's big deal. And it's not like this issue hasn't been cropping up for a while in various rulesets.
Captain Jonah
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1758
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby Captain Jonah » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:14 pm

For the standard ships the fuel used is a lot less than first edition which makes it very easy to simply add a bit of extra fuel.

For example the Free and Far Traders (60 and 75 power) use 1Dton of fuel for two weeks, adding another Dton of fuel is hardly going to be a huge change though the fuel on the Far trader is wrong since it should be 41Dtons or maybe 42.

The lab ship (power 180) is 1Dton a week, how hard is it to add 2 extra Dtons?

The patrol cruiser (power 405) is 3Dtons for 2 weeks, allowing for a one week jump that's not much of a patrol. Before anyone checks yes its 124Dtons, 120 for the jump, 3 for the Power and 1 to refuel the small craft :D

The Liner (power 360) is 3Dtons for 2 weeks but has reduced staterooms and far more cargo than it needs (it's been turned from a liner into a bigger longer range Far trader but that's a personal gripe), it could easily find space for 2 more weeks as a safety margin for all those passengers. Also the extra 1Dton is for refueling the small craft.

Re down rating power plants. Every single standard ship power plant can be divided by three.

Given the ability to halve the power consumption of basic systems this means every single ship can go to emergency power and sit or drift on 1/3rd power for a long time, some of the military ships can actually manage 1G and emergency power at 1/3rd power. This effectively triples power fuel duration. With only 2 weeks of fuel its not a huge margin but moving to a standard of 4 weeks allows for a jump and a long enough safety margin for a ship to be reported missing and for rescue ships to jump to the likely locations since a broken down or miss jumped ship could go to emergency power and last 9 weeks (4 weeks power, one week of jump then 3 weeks at 1/3rd power). Enough time for the adventure and the rescue.

Even running at 2/3 power which increase fuel duration by 50% allows most ships to manage emergency power and move, some can run with full ships power and still make 1G on 2/3rd power.

There may well be ship power plants that don't divide by three in High Guard but every standard ship does divide by three and its fairly easy to manage power plant fuel in days with 1/3rd or 2/3rds use.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
Belisknar
Mongoose
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:43 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby Belisknar » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:24 am

After reading through all this, it's reinforced what I ws thinking when I first read through the chapter.

The ships statistics should clearly state:

Fuel
Ships Maximum Fuel Tank Capacity.
Fuel Cost per Jump-1
Fuel Cost per Two week operation.

Based on that you can plan out pretty much everything.

I know that it's common knowledge for most players that the standard jump-1 is 10% of the ships displacement but when I was reading through the jump rules earlier it didn't mention that at all. So might be something worth having listed with the ships.
vladthemad
Mongoose
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:33 am

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby vladthemad » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:58 am

Belisknar wrote:After reading through all this, it's reinforced what I ws thinking when I first read through the chapter.

The ships statistics should clearly state:

Fuel
Ships Maximum Fuel Tank Capacity.
Fuel Cost per Jump-1
Fuel Cost per Two week operation.

Based on that you can plan out pretty much everything.

I know that it's common knowledge for most players that the standard jump-1 is 10% of the ships displacement but when I was reading through the jump rules earlier it didn't mention that at all. So might be something worth having listed with the ships.
Agreed, I found it a little odd that it's not separated into jump fuel/power fuel.
Condottiere
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 7334
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:23 pm

Re: Lack of Fuel

Postby Condottiere » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:38 pm

Or perhaps clearly emphasizing normal power plant consumption, in case the ship hangs around longer than normal in the same system.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests