[House Rule] Life support

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CosmicGamer
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby CosmicGamer » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:29 am

F33D wrote:Not feasible to be "distributed evenly across the spaceship". No more so than doing that for a power plant would be possible.
I do believe "evenly" is another instance of saying something not meant to be taken literally. Their point, I believe, was that there should be some division or distribution for safety. You yourself mention backup LS in your first post.

The base unit is not so large or costly that one wouldn't have multiple systems. In fact cost wise, if I understand it right, it's the same cost to add two people to a single system as to add an addition system for every two people. This makes me wonder why it takes 2/7th (hope I got that right) the space but costs the same?

It's mentioned not wanting a system in the stateroom so that passengers can't access it. What if they try to access the life support at one of the points it traverses from the central system to the bridge? I could see some ships designed with a system that supplies the bridge and is on the bridge or nearby in non passenger area for security.

Someone might design a ship with one system to service each deck.

Someone might have separate port and starboard systems with things like engineering and the bridge being important enough to be serviced by both.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:43 am

CosmicGamer wrote: The base unit is not so large or costly that one wouldn't have multiple systems. In fact cost wise, if I understand it right, it's the same cost to add two people to a single system as to add an addition system for every two people. This makes me wonder why it takes 2/7th (hope I got that right) the space but costs the same?
Same cost. Different tonnage. It's an engineering thing.
CosmicGamer wrote:
It's mentioned not wanting a system in the stateroom so that passengers can't access it. What if they try to access the life support at one of the points it traverses from the central system to the bridge?
You mean like ripping into hallway walls and ceilings? Simple, you shoot them. It's pretty obvious when they break out the cutting torch in the corridor outside the bridge. :lol:

Again, this thread isn't about where exactly the equip is. JUST the flexibility in ship design a break out allows.
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:56 am

F33D wrote:Again, this thread isn't about where exactly the equip is. JUST the flexibility in ship design a break out allows.
What is the thread about? What kind of break out? Like exploded diagrams? Your posts are cryptic. Have yet to see flexibility anywhere. You have a blog where you explain what your ideas are at least?
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:44 am

I did some research n the life support system aboard the International space station( 65Dton) since it is the closest to a starship life support system I can think of. It has to deal with the same issues a starships systems would need to deal with..and share the same risks of damage and failure.

From what I can see it is a decentralized system with components scattered through out the hull with little in the way of interconnection..no pipes, vents,ducting. It looks like a series of fans and independent scrubbers remove CO2 and moisture from teh air in each section, or pushes air toward another section to be processed.

It sort of makes sense that the system would be decentralized. Damage to a single section does not disable the systems in another sections. The absence of any ducting also allows the sections to be sealed off without needing to be able to seal off vents and conduits between sections

Now several systems like waste disposal, water filtration and supply and oxygen control appear to be concentrated in one section, with secondary systems in a couple of areas...one again it does not appear that systems are connected to other sections of the hull.


So from this layout I'd say that starship life support systems would be a combination of centralized, and decentralized systems without many interconnections between section to limit the chance of leaks and ruptures at sites where the conduits cross between sections of the hull.
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:05 am

wbnc wrote:I did some research n the life support system aboard the International space station( 65Dton) since it is the closest to a starship life support system I can think of. It has to deal with the same issues a starships systems would need to deal with..and share the same risks of damage and failure.

From what I can see it is a decentralized system with components scattered through out the hull with little in the way of interconnection..no pipes, vents,ducting. It looks like a series of fans and independent scrubbers remove CO2 and moisture from teh air in each section, or pushes air toward another section to be processed.

It sort of makes sense that the system would be decentralized. Damage to a single section does not disable the systems in another sections. The absence of any ducting also allows the sections to be sealed off without needing to be able to seal off vents and conduits between sections

Now several systems like waste disposal, water filtration and supply and oxygen control appear to be concentrated in one section, with secondary systems in a couple of areas...one again it does not appear that systems are connected to other sections of the hull.


So from this layout I'd say that starship life support systems would be a combination of centralized, and decentralized systems without many interconnections between section to limit the chance of leaks and ruptures at sites where the conduits cross between sections of the hull.
That was the beauty of the original drawing plans made up decades ago for it. The station was designed to be built modularly. Rather than a brute force U.S.S.R. giant-rocketship fashion, which had its advantages at the time. Maybe still does, since the US is out of the rocketship business these days. The US pays Russia to take people to space now.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:53 am

life support needs to be broken down into 2 categories; volume based, such as heat/cooling-lighting-pressurization, and people based, such as food-water-scrubber capacity.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:08 pm

It is hard for me to believe but from the looks of the systems and rough calculations of oxygen requirements

388 cubic feet: oxygen per day per person
311 cubic fee: cubic feet of oxygen per Standard t type medical oxygen cylinder ( compressed not liquefied)
2.17 cubic feet: Volume of t type cylinder

A volume of less 2 displacement tons distributed through out the ship would supply 230 days of breathable air, and hold the machinery needed to recycle the air.

So life support would take roughly 3 percent of the volume of a 100 ton vessel. and provide 3 weeks of life support for 10 people.....

I also had arrived at a total of 2 displacement tons being more than enough for food and water for the crew in a different thread...

So 5 displacement tons, will support 10 people for 3 weeks without difficulty....and by that ESTIMATE 0.2 Dtons per person, is as close as i can get to an accurate volume, per person,of life support. Including Food, water, air, and machinery to support that person.

WARNING: the above numbers were arrived at without a cup of coffee, or adequate sleep so I am not going to swear to their exact accuracy

Now depending on how you want to map that space you could say it is part of the Staterooms, concealed under panels in the walls or floors. Or designate a small space somewhere else on the ship as a centralized processing and storage area for the life support system..
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:29 pm

wbnc wrote: So 5 displacement tons, will support 10 people for 3 weeks without difficulty....and by that ESTIMATE 0.2 Dtons per person, is as close as i can get to an accurate volume, per person,of life support. Including Food, water, air, and machinery to support that person.
Yes, I modeled this with help from a nuke submarine engineer and taking into account a little bit of tech increase over our TL 7 gear. Notably CO2 cracking.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:21 pm

F33D wrote:
wbnc wrote: So 5 displacement tons, will support 10 people for 3 weeks without difficulty....and by that ESTIMATE 0.2 Dtons per person, is as close as i can get to an accurate volume, per person,of life support. Including Food, water, air, and machinery to support that person.
Yes, I modeled this with help from a nuke submarine engineer and taking into account a little bit of tech increase over our TL 7 gear. Notably CO2 cracking.
our numbers aren't exactly the same but they are close enough to work. I'd have to say, barring any better way to figure out LS volume, I'd be happy with what you have calculated. Of course I'd saddle myself with some exra work while designing, or redesigning the vessels I created....
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:26 pm

wbnc wrote:
F33D wrote:
wbnc wrote: So 5 displacement tons, will support 10 people for 3 weeks without difficulty....and by that ESTIMATE 0.2 Dtons per person, is as close as i can get to an accurate volume, per person,of life support. Including Food, water, air, and machinery to support that person.
Yes, I modeled this with help from a nuke submarine engineer and taking into account a little bit of tech increase over our TL 7 gear. Notably CO2 cracking.
our numbers aren't exactly the same but they are close enough to work. I'd have to say, barring any better way to figure out LS volume, I'd be happy with what you have calculated. Of course I'd saddle myself with some exra work while designing, or redesigning the vessels I created....
Yes, close enough for this type of game. If you are only making ships with standard staterooms, there is no reason to go this route (this rule).

If you want to create barracks, prison cells, more realistic, dedicated passenger liners (with different sized accommodations and extra entertainment spaces), it's handy to use. All you need to know is the number of people who will need L.S.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:48 am

Makes sense to me, and its a handy bit of information to have.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Ishmael » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:07 pm

http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2010/06 ... esign.html

A big issue with closed environments is smell. This article mirrors what a friend I had in the Navy told me about being deployed on boomers. At the end of a deployment, his wife wouldn't let him in the bedroom until he had washed the stink off his skin and that they had a 'ceremony' where they burned all his uniforms because the smell never gets out.

New scrubber designs that don't use amine helps with CO2 removal, but may help only a little bit with the stink.

dirtsiders might just be able to identify spacers by smell alone.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:26 pm

Merchant crews are usually in the ship two weeks and then get the systems flushed at the next starport.

Probably not an issue on cruiser and larger sized ships.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:04 pm

Ishmael wrote:http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2010/06 ... esign.html

A big issue with closed environments is smell.
Yes, that's because they don't super heat the returning air after dehumidifying it and sending to CO2 cracking like this system does. If you attach the L.S. to each stateroom you get that problem too as you cannot vaporize the impurities as you aren't doing it in engineering where the massive heat source it.

Condo' is right though. Even poorly designed ships (with LS embedded in staterooms) "pop the hatch" every couple weeks.
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:21 pm

F33D wrote:
Ishmael wrote:http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2010/06 ... esign.html

A big issue with closed environments is smell.
Yes, that's because they don't super heat the returning air after dehumidifying it and sending to CO2 cracking like this system does. If you attach the L.S. to each stateroom you get that problem too as you cannot vaporize the impurities as you aren't doing it in engineering where the massive heat source it.
Not a problem at TL12.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:01 pm

I wonder if you can launder the atmosphere in the fuel tanks.
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby F33D » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:03 pm

Condottiere wrote:I wonder if you can launder the atmosphere in the fuel tanks.
It's easier to just destroy the organic molecules (source of the odor) with heat from the fusion power plant...
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby wbnc » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:27 pm

one of the biggest problems with the funkiness of a ship is the fact that people sweat and shed skin. From experience even on small workboats ( 90ft ) you get a layer of crud anywhere you cant get to and scrub.

Nothing short of tearing a ship apart and scrubbing every last inch of the interior will keep a ship from picking up a peculiar odor about it over time. the older the ship the more likely it is to have it's own...bouquet
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:29 pm

How about vacuum cleaning, with, you know, actual vacuum?
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Re: [House Rule] Life support

Postby Reynard » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:30 pm

"Not a problem at TL12."

By this time, science has made Fabreeze a miracle deodorant. Part of the replaceable life support package. :)

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