Matriarchies

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:33 am

Prime_Evil wrote: But the game does not mention the possibility of gender relations or sexual politics other than those that existed in contemporary Middle Class America.
JTAS No 14, "Where No Woman Has Gone Before".

Pith Helmets was 2300.
hiro

Re: Matriarchies

Postby hiro » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:45 am

Warning, thread jack follows:

I got over my frustrations with the Third Imperium not too long ago when someone described it as a period sci-fi game. It forced me to stop and think and well, agree. The Third Imperium and the OTU is often described as Marc's game, the one he runs with the group he plays with (I'm paraphrasing here, please don't rail me for fudging the quote), Traveller can therefore be described as by default YTU/MTU. The structure as provided by Mongoose/FFE is roughly there, make of it what you will. As it's neither practical nor arguably desirable for one person/company to define a whole universe, you have carte blanche to have at it, twist it however you so please.

This brings together a couple of other threads we have running at the moment:

What Do You Want People To Know About Traveller? That it can be whatever you want it to be. It's roots are in the Third Imperium (and follow on with a description of the 3I) and that's the starting point, the end is where you want it to be.

Traveller Wish lists for 2015. A new setting, a 4th Imperium if you like, one that explores/uses the tropes of sci-fi over the last 30 years, post OTU.

There will always be issues, things that one player hates and the next loves. You can't please everyone all the time...

There are enough undocumented systems in the Spinward Marches (or substitute your neck of the woods) to have any kind of society.

Ya want matriarchal societies in YTU?

GO FOR IT!

(OK, I know that doesn't answer your OP about "Does the OTU have any matriarchal societies at all?" but I think Prime_Evil did a splendid job of answering your question).

Pith helmets in 2300? Shirley not!
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:55 am

Look at the cover of Ranger.

The Imperium was/is represented as egalitarian; though as far as a lot of stuff, it was created by a bunch of white guys in Normal, Illinois in the 1970's; but Marc is a social progressive and activist, he is on my facebook feed. IMO, the "Good Imperium" is GURPs, originally it was darker, and the nobles portrayed as:

"Nobles: lndividuals of the upper classes who perform little consistent function,
but often have large amounts of ready money."
S4
Rick
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Rick » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:54 am

I think Prime_Evil sidestepped the issue entirely, hiro and Reynard hit the nail on the head when they showed that their is little (if any) gender bias - the government types may be matriarchal, patriarchal, gender-equal or any slight variation on those 3; but bear in mind, if a government type is either matriarchal or patriarchal, it will be bigoted and based on gender inequality.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
Tom Kalbfus
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:24 am

Rick wrote:I think Prime_Evil sidestepped the issue entirely, hiro and Reynard hit the nail on the head when they showed that their is little (if any) gender bias - the government types may be matriarchal, patriarchal, gender-equal or any slight variation on those 3; but bear in mind, if a government type is either matriarchal or patriarchal, it will be bigoted and based on gender inequality.
How egalitarian is an Empire with a hereditary Aristocracy?
Rick
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Rick » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:36 am

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Rick wrote:I think Prime_Evil sidestepped the issue entirely, hiro and Reynard hit the nail on the head when they showed that their is little (if any) gender bias - the government types may be matriarchal, patriarchal, gender-equal or any slight variation on those 3; but bear in mind, if a government type is either matriarchal or patriarchal, it will be bigoted and based on gender inequality.
How egalitarian is an Empire with a hereditary Aristocracy?
Which is a good title for a NEW topic exploring the why's and wherefore's of the aristocracy of the 3I setting, but not really all that relevant to the topic at hand - if you create a new topic on that subject, I'll be happy to comment on it, just not here.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
Reynard
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Reynard » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:51 pm

"There is little evidence of any Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, or African cultural influences. Negros, Asians, Hispanics, and pretty much every other non-Anglophone ethnic or cultural group appear only as local curiosities and the dominant interstellar culture appears to be based upon the historical experience of the 19th century colonial powers."

Not a built in game fault. I see nothing in the game rules stating worlds and societies HAVE to be all white Anglo-Saxon protestants. What we have in the OTU is 5000 years and 11,000 worlds of mixing one world's population in with an already established and large vilani population to boot all which 'dilutes' the differences both physically and culturally.

Barring that, the game is reflective of the participants. The majority of Traveller players are of European decent so much of the contributed works mirror their experiences. If the game is played by a group of latinos or somewhere in Thailand, I would surmise the ship crews and world populations would suddenly transform into what those refs and players see around them. Let's not get into the Room 222 syndrome where every place and event has to be perfectly balanced population mixes.

Getting back to the topic but still referring to this thought, Traveller doesn't force every possible government variance but rather has a broad range to build from. Matriarchs and patriarchs are a subset in social schemes within the game and, again, come out when they direct a story adventure for a specific purpose. Now that brought up overall racial mix in the artwork and story lines, ever notice the mix of gender? I'd say that reflects overall males and females in Traveller are more evenly represented in many aspects of galactic life and that means government too..
hiro

Re: Matriarchies

Postby hiro » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:09 pm

Rick wrote:I think Prime_Evil sidestepped the issue entirely, hiro and Reynard hit the nail on the head
Funny that, I agreed with Prime_Evil, I think there is precious little representation for any but white men. I'm not gonna start some kind of media studies report to document how gender/race/sexuality are portrayed in Traveller but I agree with the gist that it reflects white middle class America. I don't think there was any deliberate policy, in all honesty I don't think it was thought about at all which I am OK with. It's just a game.

Looking at some of the names used, I think for the Solomani, it kinda reminds me of Dune, I am probably completely wrong in this but there appears to be an Arabian influence.

Any way. I still can't name a matriarchal society in Traveller

:mrgreen:
Rick
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Rick » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:39 pm

Course you can - Gurvin and Gurungans, we've established that.

We've already discussed most of the aliens, so let's take a look at what you are saying about the (mostly human of various types) planetary societies or Governments:
I still can't name a matriarchal society in Traveller
I think I can go one better - I can't name a single gender-specific (patriarchal/matriarchal, etc.) humanoid planetary society in the OTU at all. Not one. If anyone can find a clear example, I'd like to see it.

I think you get out of Traveller what you put into it, if the referee wants patriarchal or matriarchal societies in their setting, then they have a fairly clear field to fill in those details.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
rust
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby rust » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:10 pm

Rick wrote: I think I can go one better - I can't name a single gender-specific (patriarchal/matriarchal, etc.) humanoid planetary society in the OTU at all. Not one. If anyone can find a clear example, I'd like to see it.
Ask and you will be given ... 8)

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Rebin_Empire
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:58 pm

Mora as well: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Mora_(world) It's a matriarchy, and Delphine, is also Duchess of the Spinward Marches.

The roots of the 3I can really be traced back to three writers: Psionics, Empire, and Jump Drive from Asimov; Feudal Technocracy, Nobles, and Adventurers from Piper; and Free Traders, MegaCorps, Ancients, and Frontier from Norton.
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:24 pm

dragoner wrote:Mora as well: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Mora_(world) It's a matriarchy, and Delphine, is also Duchess of the Spinward Marches.

The roots of the 3I can really be traced back to three writers: Psionics, Empire, and Jump Drive from Asimov; Feudal Technocracy, Nobles, and Adventurers from Piper; and Free Traders, MegaCorps, Ancients, and Frontier from Norton.
The psionics are also very much Norton's, and the merchant vibe owes quite a bit to Poul Anderson as well as Norton. Anderson's influence is seen elsewhere as well.

Traveller started as a melange sourced from more than those four authors, of course. You'll find a lot of Tubb, more than a little Chandler and Laumer, and bits of Schmitz, Harrison, and Bester.
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IanBruntlett
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby IanBruntlett » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:52 pm

I'm still waiting for Supplement 15 : Powers and Principalities dead tree edition to arrive.

Question for those with PDFs of it - how does P&P compare with this discussion?

I am not a social sciences graduate so whilst I'm less than thrilled with a Feudal Society, having left AD&D2E behind me, I don't know what to replace it with.
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Reynard
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Reynard » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:38 pm

I would love to know the history and circumstances that established those matriarchies. This is an example of plopping down a governing system with no rhyme or reason that we know about. It's cute but why?
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:31 pm

GypsyComet wrote:
dragoner wrote:Mora as well: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Mora_(world) It's a matriarchy, and Delphine, is also Duchess of the Spinward Marches.

The roots of the 3I can really be traced back to three writers: Psionics, Empire, and Jump Drive from Asimov; Feudal Technocracy, Nobles, and Adventurers from Piper; and Free Traders, MegaCorps, Ancients, and Frontier from Norton.
The psionics are also very much Norton's, and the merchant vibe owes quite a bit to Poul Anderson as well as Norton. Anderson's influence is seen elsewhere as well.

Traveller started as a melange sourced from more than those four authors, of course. You'll find a lot of Tubb, more than a little Chandler and Laumer, and bits of Schmitz, Harrison, and Bester.
Sure, and Heinlein, Bradbury, Clarke, etc.; but the meat is in those big three. Note is that 1/3rd, is from a woman: Norton; and there was much unsaid as possible on purpose, in order to not be a bunch of white guys from Normal pontificating on race/gender politics, discretion being the better part of valor, as well as the example of Brunner's example of "Stand On Zanzibar" where he tried to be hip, late 60's style, and wound up dated and sort of racist.
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:37 pm

IanBruntlett wrote:
I am not a social sciences graduate so whilst I'm less than thrilled with a Feudal Society, having left AD&D2E behind me, I don't know what to replace it with.
As actually a Feudal Technocracy, I think it would be different from a medieval type, but the basic idea is that it is "men not laws" and in order to rule over vast distances. But there is a sort of sarcasm there that I don't think people get either, native to Chicago and it's region; Nielsen complained about it, as in that all adventurers were on the grift in CT.
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby Rick » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:52 pm

5 pages and NOW you come up with the examples of matriarchies? Sheesh, could've done with them a good few pages back! :twisted:

If we're going to go off onto the nature of the Imperial Nobility itself, might it be better to start a different topic?
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby rust » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:56 pm

Rick wrote:5 pages and NOW you come up with the examples of matriarchies? Sheesh, could've done with them a good few pages back! :twisted:
Sorry, I am no longer into Traveller, and visit the forum only now and then
out of a kind of nostalgia ... :oops:
dragoner
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby dragoner » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:29 pm

I'm around, I just don't read every page and every thread. It's like nobles, there have already been a ton of discussions over them.
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Re: Matriarchies

Postby sideranautae » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:07 am

Reynard wrote:"There is little evidence of any Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern, or African cultural influences. Negros, Asians, Hispanics,
Maybe he just figured that since none of those listed cultures advanced beyond TL 2 (and MANY not even having the wheel_ without Anglo/European intervention, that it was a continuation of that? It was the 1970's after all.
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