Using Mobs in melee

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Bernard Stuart
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Using Mobs in melee

Postby Bernard Stuart » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:40 pm

A couple of questions about mobs, using the JD Miniatures Game rules P37.

Q1 How many figures from a mob can you get into base to base contact in a melee, assuming that you are only allowed to charge in a straight line? Does 3 sound reasonable?

Q2 The text says the mob fights using Ganging Up. Am I right in assuming that this means that if 3 punks charge a Judge, they get 2 melee dice plus 1 for charging and plus 2 for the extra figures in contact, 5 in total? Then each dice gets +2 for the extra figures over the first.

Q3 If the defending Judge wins the melee, is he limited to killing 2 punks, like shooting at a mob on P.36? (because he only has 2 Melee dice)

Q4 If the defending Judge wins the melee, does he push back all the attacking punks?
chaoschild
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby chaoschild » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:54 pm

1: Assuming the models are on the same sized bases, you can get 6 models into melee with one target. Note that although you can only get the bonus for charging if you move in a straight line, you do not have to charge when entering melee. So long as you can reach the target it doesn't matter if you move round a corner or around other models, you just won't get the bonus melee dice.

2: Yes, that's about right. Note that EACH model gets this, they all fight individually and each one gets the bonus for every additional friendly model in combat.

3: No, as the judge fights against each punk individually. So if he wins a round, each of his hits (assuming he gets more than one) would be resolved against the punk that happens to be attacking. Then he fights the next one.

4: Again, he fights them individually so he pushes them back individually. Which is a good way to limit the ganging up bonuses for the later fighters.
Bernard Stuart
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby Bernard Stuart » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:10 pm

Thanks for your quick reply, gives food for thought.

For Q2, I had assumed that the mob fought as one big melee, but I see that the words actually mean that each figure fights individually, supported by his mates. So in my example, the attacking punks actually fight three times, each with the bonus dice, (unless one is killed previously). Wow! This makes mobs pretty deadly to characters.
abuckmaster
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby abuckmaster » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:49 am

with reference to your charging....each model is resolved on an individual basis
ie...
first model charges it rec's 1 extra melee dice for the charge and adds its melee score
if it survives then the 2nd model charges and and again would add one extra melee dice to its melee score (this is not culmative, if the model has 2 melee dice then you would only roll 3 no matter how many are in contact) but now you would get +1 for every model that is alive in base contact with the target. rinse and repeat.

your earlier post suggested that they would get an extra melee dice as well as an extra +1 for every model in contact. not sure if thats what you meant


alan
Bernard Stuart
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby Bernard Stuart » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:52 pm

Yes, that is what the text appears to be saying on P.16 of the JDMG rulebook.

" For every extra model already in base contact beyond the first, each may add one extra melee dice and gain a +1 bonus to their melee score"

So when the second model charges into contact, it gets 2 basic melee dice, plus one dice for charging, plus one dice for the first model in contact (assuming it survived and was not pushed back), and in addition gets +1 to the melee score of all the dice. So a total of 4 melee dice at +1. This can then be repeated by subsequent models, getting increasing dice and bonuses for each repetition.

Now if you do this as normal sequential actions, I have no problem with this, but I was a bit puzzled by how mobs use this rule, when P.36 says the mob "takes the same actions at the same time", so presumably they all rush into contact together. That would mean they max out the bonuses immediately and become a cop-killer!

However I am ready to be corrected in that interpretation!
abuckmaster
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby abuckmaster » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:02 pm

hmm not sure about the mob part of it...i know they all have to use the same action. I would assume that they still have to build up to the max rather than just get it. I will check with matt on monday and post his response

alan
chaoschild
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby chaoschild » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:01 pm

You're completely correct in how you interpreted it. You move all the models in the mob simultaneously, then fight melee with each one in turn (with all the bonuses that entails). I've had this confirmed directly by Matt. And yes, this means they can be absolutely lethal.
Bernard Stuart
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby Bernard Stuart » Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:21 am

Thanks for the reply. This does seem to make mobs too dangerous, out of proportion to their cost, in my opinion.

As an example to see how this works, say 6 punks with knives charge Judge Dredd. They can all get into contact because they do not have to charge in a straight line. Then each punk would roll 2 basic dice plus 1 for charging and plus 5 for his mates, all at +5. Since Dredd 'only' has 4 melee dice at +4, most likely the punks will win, and inflict up to 8 damage. Repeat for another 5 times for a total of 6x8 gives a possible 48 damage! Now, even if we are charitable and say half the damage is stopped by his armour, and some of the punks do not get a charging dice, you still are looking at maybe 24 damage! So Dredd is killed in the first round of melee.

This seems to me to be a bit gross. Especially when the method does not seem to be consistent with mobs when they shoot on P.36. Here if there are 6 punks with guns, one shoots normally, but you add 1 dice for each additional punk that can also shoot at the target. This seems reasonable, and corresponds with one shoot action by the mob. Logically, if the mob takes a melee action, you would expect the same method, one punk does the attack, and gets an extra dice for each friend in contact. Resolve as one melee, not 6 times.

The outcome of this looks like my gaming group will not be allowing mobs. The game runs just fine without that rule.
Chip
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby Chip » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:05 am

Bernard Stuart wrote:Thanks for the reply. This does seem to make mobs too dangerous, out of proportion to their cost, in my opinion.
You say that, but each Minion taken out has a 60% chance of being permanently removed from the roster so, unless you're using nothing but unarmed Juves, that mob is going to start haemorrhaging cash if you want to keep it populated.

Grud help you if you want to do a Mob of anything that costs more than, say, 25 Credits or your opponents discover explosive weapons...
chaoschild
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby chaoschild » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:16 am

That's a very extreme example, the 48 damage you quote assumes that every one of the mob's melee dice scores higher than Dredd's highest which seems unlikely. That said though, it seems to represent the reality of the comics fairly well. Anybody can get dragged down and swarmed by sheer weight of numbers, so if you're facing a mob try not to get yourself into a situation where they can all pile in like that.

Plus, minor correction to what you've said. You DO have to charge in a straight line, you just don't have to charge to enter melee. So only the models that actually charged in a straight line would get the bonus melee dice, the others that are piling in from behind wouldn't get the bonus.

I have played games with mobs using a variety of alternative rules. I've used the method you outlined, plus I've played games where each model moves and then fights before moving onto the next. Neither works, mobs played using these rules are completely ineffective in melee. Try the rules before you dismiss them, they're nasty but they do work.

And once again, if you're facing a mob equipped for melee don't get into a situation where they can gang up on you like that. Keep out of melee range, keep your back to a wall or just shoot them for Grud's sake. Mobs make great targets for any ranged weapon with multiple shooting dice, as you can take out multiple models with one action. There are plenty of ways to work around mobs, but if you don't use them you will get swamped.
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MongooseMatt
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Re: Using Mobs in melee

Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:29 pm

chaoschild wrote:Anybody can get dragged down and swarmed by sheer weight of numbers, so if you're facing a mob try not to get yourself into a situation where they can all pile in like that.
Yes, this. If someone has managed to build a combat monster in your camapign, sick Mobs onto him.

Incidentally, this is one premise common throughout the Dredd minis game - there are some very nasty combos in there but (generally speaking) there are usually cut-price counters to them as well. It is not meant to be easy :)
chaoschild wrote:And once again, if you're facing a mob equipped for melee don't get into a situation where they can gang up on you like that. Keep out of melee range, keep your back to a wall or just shoot them for Grud's sake. Mobs make great targets for any ranged weapon with multiple shooting dice, as you can take out multiple models with one action. There are plenty of ways to work around mobs, but if you don't use them you will get swamped.
And yes, this too! Multiple Shooting Dice weapons are the key here (or, in other words, give me a Spit Gun and plenty of distance, and I'll show you how a real man fights!).
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