400 ton J-2 design

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GamingGlen
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby GamingGlen » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:28 pm

F33D wrote:
The model listed is the mass produced base model. When you get more familiar with the rules and setting it'll make sense.
muhahahahaha... been with the game since it started. Haven't had much chance to play it, but much toyed around with ship building and solar system creation.
Glen
coldwar
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:50 pm

ALL the free (non gov owned) traders have armour. (slap on turrets)? LMAO. That takes MILLIONS.
Ok, tell me where I can find a typical, common trader design in one of mongooses books that has armour please?

It doesn't take Millions. It only takes 1 million to buy one Beam Laser Brand new. Buy one that is maybe 50 years old, you'll save yourself a buck. Could even buy 12 old Beam Lasers for less then the Brand new or non-standard construction price.

And I do agree with GamingGlen. A design should generally be built in the concept of where it is meant to go, and what is easily accessable.
Lets take it as it is right now, the ship could encounter a good 1400Ton pirate ship, get engaged but manage to stay alive long enough to jump out. But in the process of the battle it has lost all its armour. The ship is currently out on the Frontier. The nearest TL14 planet is 10-20 parsecs away. Till then it cannot be repaired because no one knows how to repair it without all the proper gear. So that is 20 to 40 weeks with out armour.
It's selling point then, after the encounter is now useless, and is going to cost a fortune to repair.
CosmicGamer
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby CosmicGamer » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:46 am

Captain Jonah wrote: If your ship can enter atmosphere and land anyway why bother with a launch.
- Local restrictions on where a ship can land. According to the rules, law level 3 and up.
- Not enough clear space for a ship to land where you want to go.
- Not sure on the whole grav science and ability to "hover" the entire time you are planet side. If not feasible, then a proper solid landing location might not be near where you want to go.
- Increased chance of piloting error if not landing at a dedicated location with proper navigational aids.
Core Rules page 137 wrote:Landing at a starport is a Routine (+2) task.

Most ships have landing gear, allowing them to touch down ‘in
the wild’, which requires an Average (+0), Difficult (–2) or even
Very Difficult (–4) check, depending on local conditions.
An average check with a +4DM for skill, characteristics, and timing would have trouble one out of every twelve or so landings vs a 100% success rate at the star port when it's a routine task with the same DMs.
DickTurpin
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby DickTurpin » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Ok, tell me where I can find a typical, common trader design in one of mongooses books that has armour please?
How about the Free Trader and Far Trader in the Core Rule Book; would you consider them typical, common trader designs?
Lets take it as it is right now, the ship could encounter a good 1400Ton pirate ship, get engaged but manage to stay alive long enough to jump out. But in the process of the battle it has lost all its armour. The ship is currently out on the Frontier. The nearest TL14 planet is 10-20 parsecs away. Till then it cannot be repaired because no one knows how to repair it without all the proper gear. So that is 20 to 40 weeks with out armour.
It's selling point then, after the encounter is now useless, and is going to cost a fortune to repair.
As already mentioned 6 points of armor make it immune to beam lasers and normal missiles as well as resistant to better weapons. Assume that the ship is heading for its jump point when it is attacked by a pirate. The pirate is in a 400 ton ship armed to the teeth with 4 triple turrets filled with 3 pulse lasers each. The pirate has a good crew with each gunner having gunner (turrets)-1 and a +1 characteristic mod to his check. The pirate ship uses its superior speed to close to short range before attacking.

On average those pirates are going to succeed on their attack rolls 5 times per round. I calculate that it will take an average of about 8 combat rounds to completely destroy all 6 points of armor. In that time the merchant ship has taken 40 single hits, six of them removing armor, and 34 hitting other, more critical, locations. Admittedly, that would cost a fortune to repair, assuming that the ship was even still flyable. On the other hand, if that merchant ship had had no armor at all, it would have absorbed 72 single hits over that span and almost certainly be reduced to an expanding cloud of debris. Which of those two ships would cost more to repair?

In general, having no armor means that the trader ship should just surrender if attacked and pray that the pirates don’t kill or enslave the crew. Even a lowly Type S Scout ship with a single beam laser can tear it apart if they have the time.
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:25 pm

DickTurpin wrote:
On the other hand, if that merchant ship had had no armor at all, it would have absorbed 72 single hits over that span and almost certainly be reduced to an expanding cloud of debris. Which of those two ships would cost more to repair?

In general, having no armor means that the trader ship should just surrender if attacked and pray that the pirates don’t kill or enslave the crew. Even a lowly Type S Scout ship with a single beam laser can tear it apart if they have the time.
Oh no! You are using logic to utterly destroy an argument. Oh the humanity!!!
:lol:
coldwar
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:43 am

An armour level of 4 or lower I consider light, any higher considering armour level limits, I say has medium armour. Starting to go in the range of private military ships (mercs) and light military ships.
0-4 Light, Civilian basic to advanced standards
5-8 Medium, Private Military/Light Military
9-12 Heavy, Military
12+ Super heavy, Most advanced Naval ships

Also with the armour, I have noticed, for construction cost and thus morgages etc, it could be made cheaper by using the Crystaliron armour instead, to a rating of 6. Easier to generally find spare parts for on the frontiers for repairs. Size would increase from 20 to 30tons, but only cost 4.6MCr.

Right, erm, just noticed something here to. I do believe you have got the wrong price for the hull of 12.8. A standard 400 Ton hull is 16MCr.
phavoc
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby phavoc » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:06 pm

For all the busting of F33D's chops over his design choices, I've noticed nobody asked "What kind of frontier worlds are you playing in your Traveller universe?

Maybe piracy is more rampant for his setting on the frontier? So it pays to build in extra protections on your ship? I think we can all agree that the standard rules provide only the most basic of framework for the game setting. It's up to the ref's and players to establish exactly how these things are going happen and occur.

Having a launch may not satisfy the full economics of carrying one, but the game isn't exactly built around a solid economic model either. So cut the guy some slack why don't you? It's nice that people share their stuff on here, lets not be overly snarky and discourage that, eh?
coldwar
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:08 am

Ummm, may I say some more things.
I'm not trying to bust his chops, as I have said before I like the plan, just find that it is more likely suited for something else.

Piracy, wouldn't it be better to lose the profit in your cargo and still have some kitty left over ready for the next run. Instead of having to repair your ship and go in to debt. And if say in YTU the frontier is raving with pirates then typically crews would struggle if they fight too much. Still is just better to give up let them on board and take some of your cargo.

Lastly for this post, I was thinking of making a design to go side by side with yours. Just now, something I normally do before making designs that would go side by side, I have noticed that a variety of equipment are, to me are strangely priced.
May I ask what modifications you have done to the Jump, Manoeuvre, power plant blocks as well as the computers, electronics and the hull please?
GypsyComet
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby GypsyComet » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:49 pm

phavoc wrote: I've noticed nobody asked "What kind of frontier worlds are you playing in your Traveller universe?
A frontier community that can help this ship clear 2kCr per ton of cargo bay on a regular basis. Otherwise the bank won't go for it.
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F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:10 am

GypsyComet wrote:
phavoc wrote: I've noticed nobody asked "What kind of frontier worlds are you playing in your Traveller universe?
A frontier community that can help this ship clear 2kCr per ton of cargo bay on a regular basis. Otherwise the bank won't go for it.

Correct. Any area that requires ships of this type to move freight will pay rates high enough for banks to loan on one. Why? Because the market is always right and, a horse is a horse of course of course...
AndrewW
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby AndrewW » Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:33 am

F33D wrote: Because the market is always right and, a horse is a horse of course of course...
But can the horse talk¿
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:38 am

AndrewW wrote:
F33D wrote: Because the market is always right and, a horse is a horse of course of course...
But can the horse talk¿

Only if you run an intellect pgm. :mrgreen:
DickTurpin
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby DickTurpin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:07 pm

Lastly for this post, I was thinking of making a design to go side by side with yours. Just now, something I normally do before making designs that would go side by side, I have noticed that a variety of equipment are, to me are strangely priced.
May I ask what modifications you have done to the Jump, Manoeuvre, power plant blocks as well as the computers, electronics and the hull please?
It looks like he used the 5% discount per TL mentioned under Primitive & Advanced Spacecraft on page 52 of High Guard. It might be interesting to see what the price of a TL 14 Type R works out to be using that rule. . .
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:49 pm

DickTurpin wrote:
Lastly for this post, I was thinking of making a design to go side by side with yours. Just now, something I normally do before making designs that would go side by side, I have noticed that a variety of equipment are, to me are strangely priced.
May I ask what modifications you have done to the Jump, Manoeuvre, power plant blocks as well as the computers, electronics and the hull please?
It looks like he used the 5% discount per TL mentioned under Primitive & Advanced Spacecraft on page 52 of High Guard. It might be interesting to see what the price of a TL 14 Type R works out to be using that rule. . .
Correct. As per RAW. Hence the better price/performance than designs in the MRB examples.
coldwar
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 pm

So, most of the the ship is built with TL11 (including the hull) quality newly built parts. Ok.
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:35 pm

coldwar wrote:So, most of the the ship is built with TL11 (including the hull) quality newly built parts. Ok.
edit. yes. the armour is TL 14

misread 1st time
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Just re-checked something else I noticed.
Total Cost: 92.335.000
10%: 9.233.500
Standardised Cost: 83.101.500
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:25 pm

coldwar wrote:Just re-checked something else I noticed.
Total Cost: 92.335.000
10%: 9.233.500
Standardised Cost: 83.101.500
I checked the spread sheet. I forgot to change the posted Jump control/2 s/w to Cr140,000. The one I posted here mistakenly has it as Cr200,000.
coldwar
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby coldwar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:33 pm

To my math it still only brings it to, after the 10% standard discount, 82.975.500.
Not trying to be pedantic towards you. Ran through the numbers several times already.

Anyway, I'll have a pop at designing a J-2 400ton trade ship, to be cheaper then the CRB one in the next day. Hopefully by tonight, and we can compare thoughts. :)
F33D
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Re: 400 ton J-2 design

Postby F33D » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:40 pm

coldwar wrote:To my math it still only brings it to, after the 10% standard discount, 82.975.500.
Not trying to be pedantic towards you. Ran through the numbers several times already.

Anyway, I'll have a pop at designing a J-2 400ton trade ship, to be cheaper then the CRB one in the next day. Hopefully by tonight, and we can compare thoughts. :)
Can we PM attachments? If so I'll sent you the original xls. Not sure where the other error would be.

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