Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

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SJE
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Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby SJE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:19 am

So I'm designing a Spinward Marches Imperial scenario in which the Zhodani and returned POW's play a large role. Its called "The Zhodani Candidate"

So I'm thinking its a game set in 1090, 6 years after the Fourth Frontier War. While Prisoners could have been taken from naval ships, can anyone suggest any worlds or famous ground battles from this period that might be useful?

Secondly, if people come back from Zhodani captivity, what does the Imperial Ministry of Justice do to ensure they are not brainwashed agents? Given the Psionic suppressions, is it just interviews, or does the 3I have a technological solution to overcoming the Telepathy Gap? Apparently its an open secret the Imperium has its own teep's and underground Insitutes for espionage needs, but how good are they compared to Zhodani expertise?

Third, reading the Agent book, it wasnt too clear on which Imperial Intelligence agencies exist-who exactly is responsible for espionage and counter-espionage against the Zhodani Tozjabr? The Imperial Ministry if Justice or the Ministry of State? Or is it just a group of agents with either Imperial Sanctioning or a Shadow Badge of Humaniti?


Finally - the Ine Givar - are there any decent write ups or sources of info on them? How much are they a Zhodani front organisation?

Thx.

Steve
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby andreav » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:55 am

SJE wrote:Finally - the Ine Givar - are there any decent write ups or sources of info on them? How much are they a Zhodani front organisation?

Thx.

Steve
Many many many years ago (15 to be exact) I did an article for the Ine Givar for pyramid. It's still available as long as you have a JTAS online subscription (at $20 for two years I think its worth it). http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?6 Now it's not my best work (now adays I cringe reading it, but it was a long time ago) and it's not canon. But it gives a start point.
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SJE
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby SJE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:03 am

Well I'm not sure I can afford to subscribe, just for a single article. Can you summarise perhaps the aim of your article, or give me the bibliography you drew on?

The biggest source I've found so far is actually the Living Trav adventure Festive Occasion.

Thx

Steve
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby andreav » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:27 am

SJE wrote:Well I'm not sure I can afford to subscribe, just for a single article. Can you summarise perhaps the aim of your article, or give me the bibliography you drew on?

The biggest source I've found so far is actually the Living Trav adventure Festive Occasion.

Thx

Steve
There is quite a lot of other crunchy Traveller goodness available on JTAS :) However key points from my article. Ine Givar was a person, a crusading liberal seeking to reform the Imperium in the late 900s. He didn't found the movement that bears his name, that happened after his death in Imperial custody during the Third Frontier War. By the time of the Fourth War it had become essentially an extension of the Zhodani and Sword Worlds Intelligence services. Still recruited from Imperials, but its committee leadership was controlled by them.

And Bibliography? at the time I wrote it, the only canon material was a few odd references in TNS entries and adventures. Basically they were (and pretty much still are) and blank slate.

And A Festive Occassion? Well Hans is a stickler for canon, so can pretty guarantee nothing in it will contradict established canon. You could try asking this over on CotI, Hans frequents there and might have some more information :)
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby SJE » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:36 pm

Is there any thoughts on the Imperial counter-intelligence agencies?

Thx.

Steve
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby AKAmra » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:32 am

Here's a link to a similar question posted on the SJG site (I browsed it and it seems to have to useful information):
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=24297

I'll back andrewv's suggestion for a JTAS subscription; there is a TON of information, scenarios, locations, npc's, etc. It is amongst the best bang for your buck Traveller resources available.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby Elrick » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:48 am

SJE wrote:So I'm thinking its a game set in 1090, 6 years after the Fourth Frontier War. While Prisoners could have been taken from naval ships, can anyone suggest any worlds or famous ground battles from this period that might be useful?
Try Quar, Esalin, Yres or Menorb. See: http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Fourth_Frontier_War
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby RichardP » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:15 am

The Ine Givar are an organisation fighting against what they perceive to be the unjust system of imperial nobles / govt. They are perceived as terrorists by the 3I. They do take lots of funding from the zhos - as the zhos have a democratic form of govt and they have the cash to give to such groups.

As for the 4FW. The zho invasion stalled at the borders. They were not ready for an invasion. No reports of any major worlds falling. Seems to be space battles and raids and maybe conquest of minor imperial worlds. May be something more down on the SW border or near the Vargr extents.

How about some of the crew captured from the AHL explorer captured by the zho.

The 3I has nothing really to combat zho telepathy except psionic shields, and compartmentalisation of information. They will also entrust info to certain high spec robots and computer systems as zho's can't read a robots mind.

I would imagine the 3I would retire those personnel who they believe have been influenced by zho mind control etc. Everyone else would be allowed to return to service if they want. Normal security procedures would be used to see if they were doing anything strange.

Prisoners from the top echelons of the Imperial govt would be subject to scans from those secret 3I telepaths in Naval intelligence as well as undergoing lie detector tests / interviews.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby Easterner » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:10 am

Intel

3 Services cover Counter-Intel

MoJ
IISS
IN

The IISS is an intel clearing house under the Detached Duty Ofc. All ex-Scouts are brought in when they visit a Scout facility and the service gets a rundown on their activities. They do active external Intel and using their police powers they work with the MoJ if an internal spy net was suspected somewhere. The Scouts are the Imperiums' police force and external spy agency they are exempted from the extrality rule and can go anywhere on an Imperial member planet.

The IN is very secretive and it's first priority is CYA on Navy operations and protecting the Imperium comes in 2nd. They use their sources internally and send agents externally too.

The IISS activities are covered in GURPS, GDW & MgT Scout books. Navy and MoJ are less well covered but agents from the 3 services showed up frequently in GDW and other companies published adventures.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby SSWarlock » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:41 am

andrewv wrote:Many many many years ago (15 to be exact) I did an article for the Ine Givar for pyramid.
Didn't you post something to the TML even further back than that? I think I've got an even earlier copy dating from Feb 1998 in my archives. Still an awesome write-up even if it's not canon (which it should be but that's just my opinion).

Regardless of when it was written, thank you for sharing it with us!
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby torus » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:54 pm

I vote against giving the Imperium yet another agency, whether for intelligence or any other purpose. The whole thing has been turned into a version of Starfleet already. (I blame GURPS.)

I see espionage as something organised on an informal and inconsistent basis, e.g. by ambitious nobles or zealous admirals, and not by some kind of NSA/CIA type agency.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby Nathan Brazil » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:21 pm

The Solomani Confederation has two goals that would involve destabilizing the existing border with the 3I.
a) Take back Terra
b) take back what it feels is Confederation territory.

As such, I think that Third Imperium overal has much, much more organized covert ops (if not more actual groups/departments) than stated to this point.

On the Imp/Zho border it is the Zho's fear of Imperial expansion which forces them to create covert ops groups and going to war. Naturally the Imp's fear of "sneaky Zho's" and proof that Zho covert ops exists is what causes them to create reactionary, lesser if you will, covert ops. Hope that made sense.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby locarno24 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:54 pm

Acording to Secrets of the Ancients, Imperial Intelligence falls into two branches.

FBI/Security Service types are Ministry of Justice (who have their hooks into law enforcement and security bodies).

MI5/CIA/NSA types are Scout Service (who also manage the X-boats, I think).

Naval intelligence is its own entity, and, as noted, most high-level nobles are both permitted and indeed expected to maintain intelligence and counterintelligence responsibilities within their own domains.

Apparently its an open secret the Imperium has its own teep's and underground Insitutes for espionage needs, but how good are they compared to Zhodani expertise?
Very, very, very good at the top end. We see one (again) in Secrets of the Ancients, who has a faintly ridiculous PSI 15 and Telepathy 4, not to mention 6 other ranks of psionic talents, Investigate 4 and 51 (!) other skill ranks, plus a bit of paper which says "I don't care who you are, just shut up and do what he wants. Yours sincerely, Emperor Strephon."
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby torus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:06 pm

Yes. I realise it has been going this way for a while, but I regret the way this vast star-spanning empire has essentially become the USA in space, + nobles. It's got the navy, marine corps, army, CIA/NSA and FBI. Before long I expect we'll have pretty much every present day US agency represented in some form, right down to the EPA.

IMTU, there is only the navy and the scouts. Everything else is organised ad hoc on a sector or domain scale, by dukes, archdukes or whoever wields power. Thus while there are certainly all kinds of spying and privateering activities in both the Marches and the Solomani rim ('covert ops' if you want), there is no reason why they should be handled by a single organisation.

The Imperium endures, not because it is well organised but because it is vast and because for most of its inhabitants it represents civilization.
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Re: Lore question- 4FW/Zhodani/Ine Givar

Postby Nathan Brazil » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:25 pm

torus wrote:Yes. I realise it has been going this way for a while, but I regret the way this vast star-spanning empire has essentially become the USA in space, + nobles. It's got the navy, marine corps, army, CIA/NSA and FBI. Before long I expect we'll have pretty much every present day US agency represented in some form, right down to the EPA.

IMTU, there is only the navy and the scouts.
You are correct that the 3I should be and is a decentralized entity due to the communication lags. That some tropes mirror or remind one of other times can't be helped. I think it can be said there are not enough internal intelligence organizations in existence. The decentralized nature also is what allows the Rebellion to occur (the ATU is the ATU else why have an A in it?).
Often direct naval action is not always the needed, but even then intelligence is needed to know at the least where to "show the flag" via naval presence. The real thing to consider is who handles the intelligence (Navy, Scouts, a separate branch), it scope (regional or Imperial as a whole) and how the shots are being called.
Let's face it the 3I's neighbors are not all that chummy with it and vice versa:

Solomani Confederate: Active dislike with the Sols actively causing problems to the 3I as a whole.
Aslan Hierate: Relatively friendly as a whole, but those darned ihatei are kept at bay by strong Imp Navy.
Zhodani Consulate: Stable but fearful and cautious of the Imps. Their policies and politics to keep the Imps at bay is what causes even more problems.
Vargr Extents: Many small states and "packs". The navy keeps the agressive ones at bay. Problem is you may not know which ones may someday become more agressive. Best to keep tabs on things.
Don't know much of the Julian's.
The Hivers and K'kree are too far away to have much direct impact. Were it the case that the K'kree were direct neighbors, there would have to be a strong navy to protect the border. The further future (TNE and 1248) shows what K'kree are capable of given the chance.
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