Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

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nats
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby nats » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:46 pm

msprange wrote:Just a note here - if (_if_) we do a second edition of any book, we won't be just tidying things up and altering a few stats. That is what we would do with a reprint.

I am talking about a complete re-write, from stem to stern. Not necessarily altering the mechanics wholesale (it needs to retain compatibility with the rest of the line for a start...) but we would certainly inspect each and every rule to see if it is found wanting, replacing or repairing as necessary, and taking every opportunity to add new and useful material.
I am sorry but this just gets me very very annoyed! Why release books that you feel you need to rewrite completely after a few years. You wouldnt mention it if you didnt think there were issues with your books. Doi you think we are mugs here or something? You arent getting any more of my money. You've had your chance and blown it Mongoose. Go and leave the Traveller stuff to someone else will you?
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby FreeTrav » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:15 pm

nats wrote:I am sorry but this just gets me very very annoyed! Why release books that you feel you need to rewrite completely after a few years. You wouldnt mention it if you didnt think there were issues with your books. Doi you think we are mugs here or something? You arent getting any more of my money. You've had your chance and blown it Mongoose. Go and leave the Traveller stuff to someone else will you?
nats, I have yet to see you have anything positive to say about Traveller, so I'm going to be a little rude and ask you, right out, "Why the hell are you here?"

Quite frankly, it gets a little tiring, and I'm not as diplomatic as some other people were in - rightly - asking me to shift to PM for requesting articles after they make good posts in the forums.

This is a community meeting place for supporting Traveller. That doesn't mean that there can be no criticism of it - but when one establishes a perception of doing nothing but criticising, it leads to others questioning one's motives. I'm doing so.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby tzunder » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:07 pm

High Guard needs doing, see above comments which I know were the view of the authors in the first place.

People seem to dislike Mercenary but I never really liked mercenary campaigns so it was enough for me.

I'd echo that I'd rather have new stuff, or reimagined old stuff.
8)
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby BFalcon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:43 pm

I would echo calls for High Guard - the later career books are excellent - HG lacks that polish that came later and could really do with another going over.

If nothing else, a rewording and a complete re-presenting of the rules for ship combat and construction rather than constant referring back to the rulebook would be desirable - everyone's going to have access to the rulebook, so you don't have to make its use dependant on it, after all, but it does avoid constant swapping of books.

Tables are desirable, but only for the more common options - the equation is pretty much essential - leaving cap-ship construction open-ended would be easier that way and some people will want to build as large a ship as they can, Just Because, so why not let them.

Alternative propulsion systems and technology might benefit from its own section, looking at how it would affect the universe around it, combat, etc. It need only be a few pages, if that's all it would take, but some people will want to think about using it.

Maybe rewrite/tweak the construction rules to fit in with the new vehicle rules - maybe just tweak them so that you can allow for different-sized corridors to cater for different races and/or Battledress suits. A unified construction ruleset from small craft all the way up to cap-ships would be ideal, maybe halving the given cost for a power-plant that does not need to cater for a jump-drive, perhaps?

Main rulebook: How about a rewrite that includes some of the careers from the career books, now that we've had most of them brought out, so that a character created with that book would be compatible with the more specialist rules later. It would obviously be cut down, but looking again at the balance would make getting those books more of a benefit and less hassle for any existing characters? Just thinking aloud.

Merc: Can't really comment, to be honest - I've got it, but not really looked too heavily into it - it does seem, like HG, to lack that polish that later books have though.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Thile » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:33 am

I have come across earlier as a supporter against making a second edition of anything earlier in this thread, that I admit, as I rather see new and exciting books than a 2nd edition version of already published books.

But, when I am wrong, I like to say that I am wrong. I just got the CSC equipment book and this is in a desperate need of rewriting.

There are some issues with this book that I like to see redone:

* More civilian and day-to-day equipment as well as things you can buy for a base/spaceship/apartment in the ways of furniture and ordinary living equipment.

* All Items should have weight and price listed, many does not and it is really annoying.


Otherwise, this far, this is the only book i have that requires rewriting.
thanks :)
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby BFalcon » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:14 pm

Thile: I think that they have some duplicates in there, under different headings too, as I recall.

I think it just needs a good seeing to, with maybe the the more outrageous weaponry pushed to the back of the book where you don't need to go through it to get to the more used stuff, but also, perhaps, treated a bit like an encyclopedia with tabs on the outside of the pages to help you find the sections more easily, so you can see the darker print of the tab when the pages are closed - that would allow you to find the section you need quickly - useful in such a large book.

I think that, also, rather than having weights, sizes and prices for everything in their descriptions, having them in a table, much like the weapons, would be a great help - especially if permission was given to photocopy those tables for personal use (I believe a small amount of each book is allowed anyhow)... you'd only be pulling the book out for looking up unusual items or for descriptions... the rest of the time you could use the photocopied page in a smaller report file.

I know I'd be compiling "Character Creation Booklets" - comprising the basic character creation pages, the tables for the most commonly-used equipment and the most available subsector listing for the area you're playing in, to prevent books being passed around excessively during character creation... they'd then need the career book for the class and they'd be set. I'd also be tempted to put the Scholar and Citizen careers from the MRB in there too, since they don't exist outside of it. I also have a pair of the "Introduction to Traveller" books if players need more information, but the CCBs I like to keep "lean and mean" for players who know what they're doing, but need information to hand.

I would also like to see the CSC include all the specialist equipment from the career books to date too (and possibly a couple that were in the works, if possible) - they're starting to suffer from fragmentation a bit - a little like another publisher's series with a whole load of World Books and Dimension Books (you know the one I mean), but less so. Keeping the various bits and modifications together might help when trying to remember which damned book you saw it in.

Also, another thought occurs - how about Rulebook Light - the Introduction to Traveller (Book 0) booklet which contains a very light version of the rules, including character creation - I'd like to see that rewritten so, instead of Army and Navy, you have the Citizen and Merchant classes in there - the two most common, as well as a good write up on the Air/Raft and maybe a deckplan (maybe a Type-S) to get players started. The ItT (Book 0) booklet has huge potential and I think it might just be a good one to rewrite and draw in new players. If you can play it on its own, but with severe limits on what you have available, then you have a base to make players and GMs alike to want to buy more books. But the main rulebook DOES suffer now from a large degree of redunancy. The ship construction rules are enhanced elsewhere (and used once in a blue moon and then only really by the GMs), the alien creation rules are elsewhere, the equipment is a very condensed version of the CSC (and a few guys I've spoken to have said that most players make a beeline for the career or CSC books for equipment anyhow, or just use the very basic stuff that's available in the book. Psionics and Trade have their own books now.

I think a cheap alternative to the MRB is a good thing to maintain, since it allows more players to own their own books (and, let's face it, the Book 0s are quite handy when people need to reroll characters since practically the whole section is in there, aside from the careers, which are mainly in their own books now anyhow) without any of the Ref's information, which is pretty much useless for anyone who never intends to be a Referee... Maybe a rewrite of this book may be a good idea (if it's cheap enough, maybe releasing it for Free RPG Day too...). There is currently no LBB version of the book too, which may be useful to bring out. It would also be useful for those old-school Refs who don't like players having all the tables and information to hand... or those players who like to use other people's books at a session and like to travel light (we all have them - the players who end up everyone else's books, often including the rulebooks, but also including pencils, paper and dice, all too often... at least a cheaper MRB we could *possibly* get them to pay out for... or have a whip-around and buy for them...)
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Thile » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:47 am

BFalcon wrote:Thile: I think that they have some duplicates in there, under different headings too, as I recall.

I think that, also, rather than having weights, sizes and prices for everything in their descriptions, having them in a table, much like the weapons, would be a great help - especially if permission was given to photocopy those tables for personal use (I believe a small amount of each book is allowed anyhow)... you'd only be pulling the book out for looking up unusual items or for descriptions... the rest of the time you could use the photocopied page in a smaller report file.
Wonderful idea!
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Hopeless » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:51 am

Dunia wrote:No please!
To be honest, I would rather see books like:
* Players guide to the Third Imperium/Chartered Space [see link at: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=49865

* Scholars & Scientist book, these two careers are the only two that has not got their own book yet.

I know I will not buy a second edition if I already have the first edition. I just see no point of having two almost identical books.
Ditto on the Scholars book and also about any new editions retaining their little black book variants!

Have let the shop where I usually order books (other than Amazon) know about the impending Traveller 2300 will probably have to do the same about the campaign guide although regarding those ideas about backdrops could they be done as a separate smaller release like from drive thru rpg where they highlight token areas as potential game areas?
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Hopeless » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:59 am

BFalcon wrote: I know I'd be compiling "Character Creation Booklets" - comprising the basic character creation pages, the tables for the most commonly-used equipment and the most available subsector listing for the area you're playing in, to prevent books being passed around excessively during character creation... they'd then need the career book for the class and they'd be set. I'd also be tempted to put the Scholar and Citizen careers from the MRB in there too, since they don't exist outside of it. I also have a pair of the "Introduction to Traveller" books if players need more information, but the CCBs I like to keep "lean and mean" for players who know what they're doing, but need information to hand...
Correct the career rules for the Psion so rather than be able to start with a full set of psion abilities you include that they first have the test of their characters capabilities stopping at the first success and have the choice during the career to try and activate a second talent either as a result of an event or at the cost of a skill which if failed simply means they have to select from whats available either their existing psion ability or a normal skill.

Love the idea of a character creation booklet but done so that any extra books that deal with specific careers be more intune with the one in the core rules rather than altering it entirely like the High Guard book did and the Mercenary didn't for the Army career.

Its just that the navy version gave much more elaborate career options whereas Army which should have had a book of their own was given a book that was geared towards a broader career choice and should have merited its own book in itself.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby locarno24 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:02 pm

There were a few things in Psion that could do with prodding. The Defensive K-Grid (or is it the web?) allows you to boost the armour on specific hit locations - but you don't roll for hit location until after you've determined how much damage got through the armour.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby msprange » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:02 pm

nats wrote: I am sorry but this just gets me very very annoyed! Why release books that you feel you need to rewrite completely after a few years. You wouldnt mention it if you didnt think there were issues with your books. Doi you think we are mugs here or something? You arent getting any more of my money. You've had your chance and blown it Mongoose. Go and leave the Traveller stuff to someone else will you?
Alright, fair enough. No second editions of anything.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby IanBruntlett » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:27 pm

msprange wrote: Alright, fair enough. No second editions of anything.
That's throwing out the baby with the bath water. May I offer an alternative?...

Those who have the 1st edition to provide proof of purchase of said 1st edition and payment to MGP for, say £10 less than the 2nd edition price, with free postage (within reasonable limits)?
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby msprange » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:38 pm

IanBruntlett wrote: That's throwing out the baby with the bath water. May I offer an alternative?...
You misunderstand - NATS doesn't want any second editions :)
IanBruntlett wrote: Those who have the 1st edition to provide proof of purchase of said 1st edition and payment to MGP for, say £10 less than the 2nd edition price, with free postage (within reasonable limits)?
That is exactly what we are doing with the Vehicle Handbook (at print now, due in our warehouse next week!). We'll have details on what people with the existing vehicle books can do then.

This should be a good test - if it is popular, that opens the way to further second edition books. If not, well, maybe NATS is right and we should concentrate our efforts elsewhere.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby IanBruntlett » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:56 pm

msprange wrote:
IanBruntlett wrote: That's throwing out the baby with the bath water. May I offer an alternative?...
You misunderstand - NATS doesn't want any second editions :)
There are at least 3 camps here...
0. People who don't want 2nd editions who won't buy them.
1. As 0 but also feel that by developing 2nd editions scarce talent is being squandered.
2. People who will buy 2nd Editions.

Ah, just thought of another camp!..
3. Those who have 1e but want to be compatible rules wise with the 2e. Whenever a 2e is required, make a PDF of the differences for the 1e owners. OK, I'll avoid the issue of quoting page numbers.

And another camp...
4. Those who feel that producing a 2e is tantamount to cynically milking their customers (no names, no pack-drill)

People - and companies learn from their mistakes. One example is the core rule book. I had a number of the first printing and used a hard copy of the errata PDF to update my copies of 1e CRB to be equivalent to the 2e.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby msprange » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:47 pm

IanBruntlett wrote: People - and companies learn from their mistakes.
There is also another factor. Over five years, we may very well get new ideas that are better than the ones that came before. Why can't we get those better ideas sooner? Not the way ideas work!

The new Vehicle Handbook is a perfect example. There is nothing _wrong_ with the original vehicle books. They work fine (and we know some players are going to stick with them).

But the new Vehicle Handbook is just better. We had an idea, thought it was worth acting upon and building a replacement system, and went ahead.

I also have to say that some of those arguing against new editions are being a tiny bit disingenuous. It is not as if Traveller has not had multiple editions in its life span and, at the five year point, there are more than a few other games that would be looking at a wholesale edition change, not just a handful of sourcebooks (and that should be pointed out - a handful out of, what, 40-odd?).
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Dave Chase » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:22 pm

msprange wrote:
IanBruntlett wrote: People - and companies learn from their mistakes.
There is also another factor. Over five years, we may very well get new ideas that are better than the ones that came before. Why can't we get those better ideas sooner? Not the way ideas work!

The new Vehicle Handbook is a perfect example. There is nothing _wrong_ with the original vehicle books. They work fine (and we know some players are going to stick with them).

But the new Vehicle Handbook is just better. We had an idea, thought it was worth acting upon and building a replacement system, and went ahead.
...

Well this could provide to be interesting depending on how different your new vehicle guide book is. Hopefully, you make it either backward compatible or offer how to take those older vehicles (made with the first printing) and update them to second printing.

Other wise some of the old gonard and the new MgT gonards will start aruging over with edition MgT is accurate. ;)

MgT1
MgT2
TNE
T5
T4
CT
etc.

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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby GamerDude » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:25 am

IanBruntlett wrote:
msprange wrote:
IanBruntlett wrote: That's throwing out the baby with the bath water. May I offer an alternative?...
You misunderstand - NATS doesn't want any second editions :)
There are at least 3 camps here...
0. People who don't want 2nd editions who won't buy them.
1. As 0 but also feel that by developing 2nd editions scarce talent is being squandered.
2. People who will buy 2nd Editions.
3. Those who have 1e but want to be compatible rules wise with the 2e.
4. Those who feel that producing a 2e is tantamount to cynically milking their customers (no names, no pack-drill)
*gets the microphone - taps it a few times* Testing, testing - can anyone hear me?

Ok, all of these are valid - each for their own reasons. Let me explain my stand by using D&D 3rd to 3.5 as background.

When 3.5 was announed - many people screamed "rip off" and "too soon", and those same people completely ignored that WotC very nicely (and publicly) put up for download a PDF on exactly the changes from 3rd to 3.5, how to update all three core books plus every hardcover book under 3rd. - FOR FREE! No one need buy a single 3.5 book that was replacing a 3rd ed book. This was a huge gift to the fans that could have seriously cut into sales of the 3.5 core books. (btw -how many 3rd ed books got 3.5 versions? PHB, MM, DMG, Psionics... anything else?).

Of course, in particular the 3.5 DMG had a bunch of new material that belonged in the DMG but before was in other books.

Now, lets look at MGT
They have done great things - and learned many things - and the second edition of "760 Patrons" reflects that. From soft to hard cover and about triple the page count (I haven't looked a the page counts). Everything expanded.

The following of how CT did supplements and books, the naming etc was a nice "welcome to the new Traveller, the same game just better".

But the time has come to fix what was broken (discrepancies in rules, having to look all over the place for certain equipment etc) and add in updated info.

Some of this has been done (vehicle book) but more could be done: Updated and consolidated careers book - the info on like how to make a Merc ticket etc brought into one book (not the core rules) one book to bring us all and in the Third Imperium bind them,.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby rustorod » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:21 pm

What is the process to swap/switch 1st editions to 2nd editions? I have the 760 Patrons and would like to swap.

Thanks.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Darzoni » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:46 am

I don't mind 2nd Editions as long as they're an improvement over the previous stuff. Heck, the only reason I didn't buy supplement 5 and supplement 6 is because I read that a compilation/revision was due out. It's something I'll end up getting as my players are... inventive, to say the least.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby msprange » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:42 am

rustorod wrote:What is the process to swap/switch 1st editions to 2nd editions? I have the 760 Patrons and would like to swap.
It all depends on what we have done. With the first printing of the original High Guard, there were some genuine issues, so we swapped them out freely. With vehicles, we offered an incentive to 'upgrade' because, well, we said we would!

No such upgrade exists for 760 Patrons, primarily because there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the first edition, and it is perfectly useable right now _alongside_ the second edition - the second edition did not replace anything, it simply approached the material from a different (Classic Traveller) direction.
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