Traveller 2.0

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Iron Warrior.
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Traveller 2.0

Postby Iron Warrior. » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:51 am

Ok, I know some people will blow headgaskets over this, and some people will call it trolling.

Philosophical question for you: Is it trolling if one posts an honest, sincere reply to a question that's been posed solely to answer the question honestly and fairly but he knows people will start flaming him over it?

Anyway, my honest answer would be to make a new version of traveller called "Traveller 2.0" that would take the tech lid off traveller. Genetic engineering, cybernetics, uplifts, transhumanism, artificial intelligences, androids, etc. It's all good.

I would keep the core of traveller, the jump drive and the limits on travel speed and information speed. I feel these form the core of traveller by limiting the size of a single government and forcing more dispersed governments and localized authority. So no FTL radio and jump is still limited to j6.

I'd keep the ancients and the races background mostly as is.

But no "imperium", and no dukes, counts, barons, hereditary nobility. Nuh uh. Seriously, if someone today tried to do a hereditary monarchy in the modern world he'd be laughed off the stage.

I'd update the government, because I just don;t feel most people even in today's world would tolerate a real hereditary monarchy. I'd change the title of the imperium, and make it more of a republic.The idea that worlds are mostly left to their own within some limits would remain.

There would be a lot of factions, the solomani would remain with a new name, as they reject transhumanism and such, but there'd be genetically engineered factions, cyborg factions, total post and transhumans, maybe even artificial life.

Nanotech? You bet! Nucleosynthesis? Sure. So the economic model would change, but there could be conflict over other issues to keep players busy.

That's just something I'd like to see, but I know it won't get done. Still, it's my honest answer to the question of what mongoose should do next.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby BFalcon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:31 am

Well, to be honest, a hereditary monarchy does make sense where the planet is actually owned by the original settlers - if one family owns enough of the land, then a monarchy would be entirely appropriate, as would lords and other nobility, depending on who owns the land they have granted to them - if it's still (legally) in the name of the monarch, but they've granted it to you, they're still only (legally) loaning it to you - a monarch can take it back at any point, but would need an excuse or face pressure from other nobles. Commoners would likely be paid to come and settle the planet (while on a more democratic planet, settlers would probably need to pay for their own transport and supplies) and granted supplies with which to build their homes, in exchange for not expecting any land grants.

Keeping a monarchy would be possible, mainly by limiting military power in the hands of the commoners and by having an effective military, but one where the power is split up to prevent a coup and, after a while, people would get used to it. In some ways, as long as the nobility and the monarchy are actually doing their jobs and looking after the people below them, then the commoners may actually prefer that setup - they don't need to be bothered with anything over local politics and can get on with their lives. Democracy as it is today isn't that much different - you still get some faceless government ruling over you, it's just that you get the impression that you help to make the rules, whereas the influence you get to exert isn't as much as we'd sometimes like (or even like to admit). There are times, even, when not having bickering at the top is actually beneficial.

Of course, where all this comes tumbling down is where you have a monarch who is either heavy-handed, neglectful of his duties to his people or just plain greedy, so causes trouble for all involved.

And, of course, any planetary government, after a while, will come into contact with another and, sooner or later, a conflict will ensue. The winner will usually set up their own form of government on the planet they conquer and so monarchies, republics and so on, become empires (even if by another name). Larger empires will swallow up lone planets and smaller empires. Repeat a few hundred times and you end up with larger empires which can't be stopped, even by makeshift alliances...

Then, of course, you have the constitutional monarchies - having a titular head to the government can be a good thing too - someone to provide a bit of continuation without having too much power... of course, they're also a drain on the national wallet, so need to be balanced.

Lastly, a republic was what Rome had... and then one Senator got too much power, gathered the army to himself and made himself Emperor (Imperator) over the weak Senate... which was eventually abolished. No form of government is superior, merely different - even communism was originally set up as being beneficial to all, but much like any other, the original concept and intent was corrupted. The US was founded on equality for all, but you have a nobility in all but name in the form of the corporate families - inherited fortunes that create power through wealth and wealth through power... are you so sure that, if given the opportunity, a multi-billionaire wouldn't actually buy the rights to a whole new planet and call himself King if he thought he could get away with it? I'm not.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby AndrewW » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:28 am

Iron Warrior. wrote:Anyway, my honest answer would be to make a new version of traveller called "Traveller 2.0" that would take the tech lid off traveller. Genetic engineering, cybernetics, uplifts, transhumanism, artificial intelligences, androids, etc. It's all good.
You don't need a 2.0 for this. Some of this is out there now with the Robots and Cybernetics books, not to mention some uplifts. You can also get some of this with a different setting such as Twilight Sector which does have a lot of this already, this would probably be closer to what you are looking for based on that then the 3rd Imperium setting. Though probably not ideal either.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Rick » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:23 pm

I think you have some good ideas, but perhaps a rethink of the entire range is not necessary. Mongoose Traveller has had several sourcebooks tied into other systems, as well as the 3rd Imperium one - perhaps it is time to do a different, more generic background for it. But - you might also want to check out the upcoming 2300 books - they might have a lot of what you're looking for.
But no "imperium", and no dukes, counts, barons, hereditary nobility. Nuh uh. Seriously, if someone today tried to do a hereditary monarchy in the modern world he'd be laughed off the stage.

I'd update the government, because I just don't feel most people even in today's world would tolerate a real hereditary monarchy.
A good proportion of the countries of the world already have an hereditary monarch as their head of state, and most of them seem quite happy with it, so I feel your statement is maybe just bias? When you think about it, a world (or even a large country) that is a republic with a president and area governor's could be seen as an empire in all but name - it's not a huge step to go from there to families that have successive presidents (Kennedy's or Bush's?) to hereditary positions. It's just a matter of degree and a name, lol! :twisted:
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby BFalcon » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:33 pm

The thing to remember about Traveller is that it's like D&D... it has a default world (Mystara), but you don't have to use it if you don't want to. Traveller has decent rules for all the things you asked for, so why not use the upcoming books and make your own universe and, when it's all polished, see if one of the magazines will publish it?
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby nats » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:29 am

Iron Warrior. wrote: Anyway, my honest answer would be to make a new version of traveller called "Traveller 2.0" that would take the tech lid off traveller. Genetic engineering, cybernetics, uplifts, transhumanism, artificial intelligences, androids, etc. It's all good.
Sounds like a completely new game rather than Traveller. Traveller is only Traveller if you stay with the constraints which are people still using cutlasses and present-technology guns, as well as modern ones, with slow communication rates, minimal robots and psionics, humans as humans with all their weaknesses and vices, etc. Once you start getting rid of all that and going ultra sci-fi its a different game altogether IMO and I wouldn't want to play it. Besides there are already Mongoose books that deal with all that stuff for those who want it. But once you get ultra high tech it gets as boring as hell.

I like Traveller because its realistic, believable and gritty. I don't want Star Trek.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Stainless » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:14 pm

One thing to consider is that everything published for Traveller by Mongoose has to be vetted by Marc Miller. He seems to have given them some scope for development, but there'll be a limit. While Marc is still involved, you won't see radical changes to the system.

However, I've argued before and will again that I'd love to see Traveller 2.0 as an errata fixed, slightly re-written version. Just like they seem to be doing for MRQII to Legend, MGT could do with a bit of an overhaul. However, Matt has written before that he doesn't intend to do this.
troy812
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby troy812 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 5:48 am

I'd be happy with a Traveller "1.5" if it just contained better pictures.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby nats » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:38 am

troy812 wrote:I'd be happy with a Traveller "1.5" if it just contained better pictures.
I would be happy with a corrected Mongoose 'Traveller 1.5' if it contained a redone Mercenary, and other books to make them worthwhile buying, ie without any of the boring bits/missing bits/inconsistencies and as you say better, more coherent set of illustrations throughout the books.

I would like to see detailed star system design system, animal speeds/combat surprise/avoidance covered, a full skillset and detailed chargen in the core rulebook (instead of new skills and chargen dotted around all the books), synchronised equipment/weapons throughout all the books (especially the core rule book and the CSC), proper vehicles and robot design rules (at least one of these is being done!), and some decent massed combat rules and personal combat/ship combat rules for using miniatures.

There is a lot of scope for this kind of update/revision amongst the released stuff, which is mostly all over the bloody place. The Core Rule Book was superb, but everything since has been decidedly lame by comparison.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Myrm » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:34 pm

The original proposal doesn't sound like a new Traveller ruleset to me, more a milieu for the existing one looking at high end tech stuff leaning more to Transhuman and Uplift stuff.

The Age of Sail in space concept is Third Imperium Traveller and the most recognisable version and became intricately tied in with the original Little Black Books, but it is not the whole of the scope of the ruleset.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Iron Warrior. » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:24 pm

First of I must say I'm pleasantry surprised by the replies being so non hostile. Some traveller fhans would have been insulting my ancestory after I'd made this suggestion. The replies here have been very calm, cool and non abusive.

Secondly, I still think that a game with transhumanism, AI, advanced tech, no imperium or nobles, etc would be traveller if you keep the jump drive as is and allow no form of FTL communication. Those criteria limit government and make it impossible to have one vast monolithic government, a'la an empire or federation given time lags in communication.

Also, working in the OTU background, one could argue the first imperium got it's ass waxed precisely because is imposed a moratorium on advancing technology on itself and chose to essentially stagnate and eliminate innovation. The lesson of the terrans kicking the first imperium's ass could essentially be what drove the terrans and the descendants of the villani to not allow themselves to stagnate technologically again.

I think that with long comms delays and lots of space to expand into we could have a lot of factions that could be interesting and make things quite dynamic. We could have all sorts of transhumanist, post humanist and other factions in various degrees of conflict and cooperation.

I'd keep the Zhodani but make them a little more aggressive amnd the idea ofthem wanting to assimilate everyone into one vast psionic collective might keep the non zhoads together in opposition. I'd keep the k'kree pretty much as is too for similar reasons.

Like I say, it's just an idea for an alternative traveller universe that some people might like.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Stainless » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:23 am

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
Myrm
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Myrm » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:45 am

Iron Warrior. wrote:Some traveller fhans would have been insulting my ancestory after I'd made this suggestion.
<snips>
Secondly, I still think that a game with transhumanism, AI, advanced tech, no imperium or nobles,
<snip>
Like I say, it's just an idea for an alternative traveller universe that some people might like.
Indeed - for many however Traveller and the OTU are intricately entangled - its quite clear Mongoose doesn't operate that way wit the Traveller brand having its core books, and then the Third Imperium ones (which cover the OTU). A number of the core books have bits of kit that do not fit within the OTU and so are clearly not for it.
Transhumanideas can be found in other systems and games and could be ported over, I just don' think it needs a new version of Traveller to do it - just a specific supplement - possibly drawing from some of the higher tech gizmos in Robot, Central Supply and other core books to be more central. IIRC High Guard hasother FTL engine options to go to a other world setups.

I mean B5 got a work up using the Traveller ruleset, and there's 4 other settings all using the ruleset listed under the same rules base - so why rewrite everything just for a milieu - far more useful to spend the time describing the milieu in more detail than reinventing the wheel - its not like you couldn't switch in the odd rules change where its simply demanded by the settings. And there's no need to stay in the OTU for anything (though the star map itself will be a huge base resource that may come in handy a bit).....

Hmm, in the python vein - does this count as taunting once again? :D
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby Wolfsbane » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:26 pm

I appreciate Mongoose reinvigorating the classic Traveller setting.

I'd probably pick up some "2.0" stuff, I have not been a huge fan of cybertech games and dystopias or anything nanotech but I have enjoyed Transhuman Space for GURPS enough to collect it - never found someone to run it.

I use the MGT system nowadays to play my own universe which starts more like 2300 AD and especially High Colonies but also reaches forward thousands of years to an intergalactic Galactic Empire where there's a struggle between concepts of government, will the powers-that-be make a Dune-like Empire or a Marc Miller style Imperium (spoiler - the Marc'ians win out, and ultimately span the Local Group).
Latest adventures have been mere TL9-10(sans gravitics)/24th century stuff around 61 Cygni's neighborhood.
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Re: Traveller 2.0

Postby tzunder » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:36 pm

Maybe a Traveller: Ultra Tech sourcebook that opens up the higher tech levels?
But also wait for 2300AD, a lot of the gene engineering, cybernetics will be in there.

As long as you call it your ATU, then no-one will critique it overly.

To get modern homogenous galactic culture you need to introduce FTL radio IMHO...

and it is deliberately not there in the OTU, it's a design choice..
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