Do you think Tanks are too dominant in the game?

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Bede
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Do you think Tanks are too dominant in the game?

Postby Bede » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:05 pm

Thus far we've been playing sub 1000 point battles while we build our forces (takes a lot of MEA to get to 1000 points!).

What I've noticed is that when a tank is included in the game it tends to dominate the action.

When playing EFTF if the enemy has a tank and you don't, it seems to be a lost cause.

And even when both sides have tanks the tanks seem to stalk each other and then deal with the infantry at leisure.

We've found that much more interesting games involve just infantry or infantry and APC's/IFV's.

Any thoughts on this?
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Postby Cailet » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:03 pm

At that level, yeah. Tanks are REALLY powerful and the Challenger is TOO powerful.

Go up to two thousand points using the force organisiation in the book and it's not as bad (though Challenger with a Command Squad is still obscene).

Killing Challys requires so much effort though, it's often the gamebreaker, too often IMO.
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Postby SnowDog » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:12 pm

After only a few games under my belt I wouldn't say so. PLA still has anti-tank capability without their Type-99 and those RPGs can really put hurt to Brits or Marines.

Last game I played my Abrams destroyed the other side's Type-99 at first round with a single shot. Still I got very near to breaking point (we used 50 %) just by loosing Marines. Granted, it was the Abrams that finally turned the tables and after salvo from all the weapons I managed to shatter the opponent's troops. It was a close call.

Of course it all depends on how much cover you have on your battlefield. If it has plenty of cover where tanks can't see they don't rule the game so much. But they are powerful, I give you that.
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Postby xbowmen » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:13 pm

Cailet wrote:At that level, yeah. Tanks are REALLY powerful and the Challenger is TOO powerful.

Go up to two thousand points using the force organisiation in the book and it's not as bad (though Challenger with a Command Squad is still obscene).

Killing Challys requires so much effort though, it's often the gamebreaker, too often IMO.
I agree, the last game that I GM had that problem. This forum has provide a solution to the Challenger 2 and 3 actions by Command Squard. That solution is: allow the enemy tank to fire its main gun as a reaction if it has not fire the main gun the previous turn and has place a ready marker on its last activation. I know this is a house rule but it make prefectly good sense to me. Also it a unit that has a personal AT weapon that has not fire last turn and has a ready marker in its last action can react to Tank fire. I think that fix the 3 action problem for tanks.
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Postby Bede » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:31 pm

SnowDog wrote: and those RPGs can really put hurt to Brits or Marines.
I can't say I agree with this. The RPG rolls a D10. It can't kill either a Challenger or an Abram outright.

So you need 5 hits from an RPG to do in one of those tanks. In the meantime the tank as driven all over your head.

Now the AT-14 carried by the Fedayeen is better (D10+2) but still not killing the Challenger.
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Postby cordas » Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:36 pm

Its really to early to say. WHen each side has a dozen or so units and is fully rounded out I am sure tanks will become less of a threat. However tanks are tanks and they are meant to rule the battlefield (well unless there is air support around). Air support will start coming out sometime next month...
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Postby SnowDog » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:30 pm

Bede wrote:
SnowDog wrote: and those RPGs can really put hurt to Brits or Marines.
I can't say I agree with this. The RPG rolls a D10. It can't kill either a Challenger or an Abram outright.

So you need 5 hits from an RPG to do in one of those tanks. In the meantime the tank as driven all over your head.

Now the AT-14 carried by the Fedayeen is better (D10+2) but still not killing the Challenger.
Ah, I was a bit unclear in my posting. I agree that RPGs are almost useless against Challenger or Abrams (especially if they are in hull down position). What I was trying to say, is that those RPGs are quite efficient against infantry.

Tank is a hard one but is still just one model. There can be quite a bit of infantry models on the table that are relatively easy to wipe out and win the game through shatter. To that purpose RPGs are quite good.
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Postby Cailet » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:05 pm

A hull down Challenger takes 75 (approximately, give or take I did the maths very quickly in my head) PLA RPG's to kill. Same for The Abrams true but it's easier to kill by everything else.

There is no infantry weapon which can kill it outright (fair enough but when it's all we have it's a bummer).

It can kill infantry in droves and makes a real mess of other tanks to boot.

The only answer I've found is called 'A lot of kornets and a lot of luck' (PLA plaer but I borrowed Low-Roller's MEA).

I expect that the J-12 will redress the balance somewhat but what do I have until then?
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Postby Bede » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:14 pm

Cailet wrote:
The only answer I've found is called 'A lot of kornets and a lot of luck' (PLA plaer but I borrowed Low-Roller's MEA).

I expect that the J-12 will redress the balance somewhat but what do I have until then?
There's also the Fedayeen.

They can suicide bomb the Challenger (they roll a 2 x D10 + 4 ). Haven't tried to pull it off yet though.

Anyone succeed in doing this?
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Postby Swiss Tony » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:30 pm

I managed it for the first time inmy last game at the Mongoose tournament. Feyadeen in a Technical moved on table 12", dismounted and used a command action to charge getting three in contact with a challenger, next turn the Challenger was destroyed.....still lost the game big time though, but at least I finally managed to knock out a challenger .
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Postby Cailet » Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:04 pm

Bede wrote:
Cailet wrote:
The only answer I've found is called 'A lot of kornets and a lot of luck' (PLA plaer but I borrowed Low-Roller's MEA).

I expect that the J-12 will redress the balance somewhat but what do I have until then?
There's also the Fedayeen.

They can suicide bomb the Challenger (they roll a 2 x D10 + 4 ). Haven't tried to pull it off yet though.

Anyone succeed in doing this?
Not tried. Seen it happen though.

Still seeking a PLA based solution though.
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Postby cordas » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:04 pm

Cailet wrote:A hull down Challenger takes 75 (approximately, give or take I did the maths very quickly in my head) PLA RPG's to kill. Same for The Abrams true but it's easier to kill by everything else.

There is no infantry weapon which can kill it outright (fair enough but when it's all we have it's a bummer).

It can kill infantry in droves and makes a real mess of other tanks to boot.

The only answer I've found is called 'A lot of kornets and a lot of luck' (PLA plaer but I borrowed Low-Roller's MEA).

I expect that the J-12 will redress the balance somewhat but what do I have until then?
be patient :( good things will come to those who wait.
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Postby anton970 » Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:16 am

personally having lots of experance fighting the classic cheese brit force of command and 1 challanger,

as Mea, you have the fed's immune to supression get some normal guys make them the same and rush it! Or have you tried roadside bombs yet? Play mission and see how usful it is then,

With the Sempi FI boys

Shadows.... rollox to the abrhams!

Chinks.... I'm sure "pla" pete and his ramming transprts can give you the low down on that! looks more like a destuction derby by the end of it!
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Postby 127th Angry Angels » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:22 am

As a Brit player it really does feel like i can tolerate the Type 99's and then destroy them when i feel like it. 8 games hasn't changed that standpoint. I don't know an awful lot about the real world armour of the PLA so i don't know if it's a poor reflection of the tank or the points are off (either the 99's too much or the Chally is too little) but at the moment it really feels wrong and it's hard to keep players enthusiastic until a AT helicopter comes out (whenever that is).

The central theme of most battles, regarless of objective has been kill the chally and it just dosn't die. It's hard to ignore the chally and go after the infantry when it can wreck tanks in one shot, decimate or supress squads. Throw in the excellent warrior and SAS sections as support and it makes it hard on the PLA. I lectured my opponent on the virtues of tank avoidance and he adapted, tried using higher ground, 2 on 1 with the tanks and in one instance my chally absorbed 2 squads RPG rounds and 2 Type 99's tank shells for 3 turns with very minimal effect. The Chally soaked it up and eliminated each threat in turn. At first i didn't believe there was any balance issue but after a game last weekend i checked if other PLA players were finding the same thing and it seems we're not alone.
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Postby Pietia » Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:45 am

127th Angry Angels wrote:(either the 99's too much or the Chally is too little)
It's both actually...
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Postby cordas » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:20 am

I dunno, I seem to have problems that my Challies die to easily.... or is just my mate has a habit of rolling 9s and 10s with his Abrams. I really can't see how you can say the Challie is to cheap AND that the Type 99 is to expensive.

The Challie points wise stacks up nicely against the Abrams I feel, so that would suggest to me that the Type 99 should be cheaper, drop it to 325 or even 300 and it would become a load better, the PLA also need to their infantry bumped up in abilities and stuff or made cheaper.
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Postby Pietia » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:24 am

The challie does not stack nicely against Abrams - its only five points more, but much tougher. With 120mm gun you have 30% chance to kill Abrams in the open, only 20% to kill Challenger (that is a large difference in survivalability). In cover Abrams can still be insta-killed (10% chance with 120mm), the Challenger can't be (at least until the LeoII appears).
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Postby 127th Angry Angels » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:03 am

I have never lost a Chally. It's been down to it's last armour save only once and even then i was willing it to die so my opponent could have a victory and be spurred into keeping up with the game. I've had warriors reduced to burning wrecks and teams of infantry decimated but no matterwhat the Chally roles on through and clears up. I can see why it's not allowed to react, then it would be pretty unstoppable.

The PLA laws are ok but a very short range compared to the tank it's trying to kill. Also the troops have no save they are easy to wipe away with a tanks MG's nevermind main gun. The number of them you get for the points dosn't really tie in with the wave of humainity fluff either. I know they can divide and are therefore more flexable but how much is that really worth on the field.

Just my thoughts
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Postby cordas » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:08 am

Pietia wrote:The challie does not stack nicely against Abrams - its only five points more, but much tougher. With 120mm gun you have 30% chance to kill Abrams in the open, only 20% to kill Challenger (that is a large difference in survivalability). In cover Abrams can still be insta-killed (10% chance with 120mm), the Challenger can't be (at least until the LeoII appears).
But thats not all the Abrams has, its faster and has more guns that it can bring to bear, and has the ability to open up an extra fire zone, and can fire more weapons in a reaction. Now if you take those 10 shots at an Abrams cover (1 of which will kill) and fire those same 10 shots at a Challie in cover the Challie will be just as dead from failed armour saves.... Ok its not going to be one shot killed, but those 1 shot kills either happen all the time or never.
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Postby cordas » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:12 am

127th Angry Angels wrote:I have never lost a Chally. It's been down to it's last armour save only once and even then i was willing it to die so my opponent could have a victory and be spurred into keeping up with the game. I've had warriors reduced to burning wrecks and teams of infantry decimated but no matterwhat the Chally roles on through and clears up. I can see why it's not allowed to react, then it would be pretty unstoppable.
Hmm I have had a fair number of them reduced to burning wrecks, by both kills and accumulated battle damage.
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