A Trial by His Peers

Discuss Mongoose RPGs here, such as the OGL rulebooks, Jeremiah, Armageddon 2089 and Macho Women with Guns
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redlaco
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Postby redlaco » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:59 pm

And don't forget that the whole point and quality of the B5 show can be summed up by two words : "Choice and Consequences" or "Responsability vs. Destiny", something like that.

So, I think the player should be punished by Narn laws. However, if the other players feel up for it, they could try to raid the prison to free him, but good luck if they get caught, especially the Centauri dancer...
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Postby PottsBr » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:22 pm

I agree that the character should bear the consequences of his actions, but that doesn't mean he has to be convicted in a court of law, and it doesn't mean the consequences have to be immediate. Moden did all sorts of terrible things, but he didn't get his come uppance for three years. Then he paid all his back debts with interest.

"I would like to live just long enough to see your head on a pike as a symbol to the next ten generations that some favors come at too high a price. I would look into your lifeless eyes and wave. Do you think your associates could arrange that Mr. Morden?"
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Postby Guest » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:00 pm

Look, I'm the player Charector and I could careless what sid desides to do. I would like him to make it out alive, but if not, I'll make a new charector, simple as that.... I'm way to old and have been RP'ing way to long to alow something like this to ruin the fun for me or the other players.

When the charecter was made, Sid new that the charecter was a bad person. His history alone could tell everyone that. He was designed to be a major antagonest in the campaign, as per sid's approval. as a matter of fact, one of the comments that sid made about the charecter was that "he may need to kill the charecter later because of it". So for all those throwing stones.... I'm realy not that attached to the charecter that I will loose sleep over him dieing.

I will post my defence today, and when I do, I will post it here also, so that everyone here can keep up with the tormented struggle of Max Wolf.


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Postby shalazar_bation » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:02 pm

sorry that was me up there!


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El Cid
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Postby El Cid » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:10 pm

Max is not the only PC in my PBEM game who has serious issues.

I've been seriously considering charging for my counseling services for these PCs.

We have one PC who has developed a second personality and alternates between the two in game. Try and run a game with that type of PC. I dare you.

Max’s problems are minor compared to some of the others.

I’ve offered to allow some PCs to post on a separate group so they can play a PC who is aligned with the Shadows.

All in all, I’m enjoying running for these players who have proven imaginative, flexible and just plain fun to play with.

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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:02 pm

El Cid wrote:Max is not the only PC in my PBEM game who has serious issues.

I've been seriously considering charging for my counseling services for these PCs.

We have one PC who has developed a second personality and alternates between the two in game. Try and run a game with that type of PC. I dare you.

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Postby PottsBr » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:08 pm

Anonymous wrote:I will post my defence today, and when I do, I will post it here also, so that everyone here can keep up with the tormented struggle of Max Wolf.
You've got a defense to present against this? That I have got to read.

Seriously though, I'm still waiting to find out what the prosecution is presenting at the trial. Even if the prosecution produced the blow by blow account given at the start of this thread (which is positively damning) the defense may be able to shed some doubt on things here by discrediting witnesses, showing how certain evidence is ambiguous as to cause, casting doubt on whether the witness was present at the time of the crime, the recordings have been tampered with, evidence mishandled, etc.

If we're just to assume that we have a perfect record of the events in the bathroom, you're toast. Plead insanity and throw yourself on the mercy of the court.
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Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:55 pm

If we're just to assume that we have a perfect record of the events in the bathroom, you're toast. Plead insanity and throw yourself on the mercy of the court.
:twisted: and what kind of fun would that be?



I am working on my plee right now....


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Postby El Cid » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:59 pm

The prosecution’s case will be fairly simple.

1. Max will be placed at the scene of the crime. Numerous witnesses and security cameras show him and the victim going into the restroom. Vids and witnesses show Max leaving the restroom alone. All vids are time stamped so we know the exact time when they were recorded.

2. If my memory is correct, he took no special care in slitting the Narn’s throat as well as writing on the wall “BLOOD OATH” using the victim’s blood, I expect that Max has residual blood from the victim on his hands and splashed on his clothes. I’m not sure which blade he used to cut the Narn’s throat but it should have the victim blood and Max’s fingerprints as well as Max’s DNA on it. He never mentioned wearing gloves or taking any care to hide and evidence.

3. PPG in Max’s position was recently fired. PPG trauma to the back of Narn’s head and neck is consistent with Max’s PPG and shows that the shot was fired from close range.

4. No sign of a struggle at the murder scene.

5. I expect that the Narn’s questioning Max would use force to get him to confess to his crime. We can role play that out if he’d like to. SLAP! WACK! “Talk human scum!” SLAP! “Confess! We know you murdered our brother Narn!” “PUNCH! “How much did the Centauri pay you!?” . . .

Max will have a problem getting a high priced lawyer like Johnny Cockeran (sp?) to represent him. “If the glove doesn’t fit, you’ve got to acquit!”

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Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:29 pm

He cleans the Ka'Toc, sheaths it. Holsters his PPG
and puts the Narns PPG in his bag along with the Ka'Toc. He washes
the blood off of him, changes cloths and walks out like nothing
happened.


Shalazar
Common... Max is smarter than that..... he has an 18 INT for cripes sakes... :wink:
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Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:26 pm

but yes the cloths in the bag that he was wearing would have the blood on them. And there is no need to interagate him..... (he knows how that goes) He admits to doing it.

I will post the defense in about two minutes....


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The Defense of Max Wolf

Postby shalazar_bation » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:30 pm

I would like to send a letter to G'Kar:

Honorable Ambassador G'Kar. I have a favor to ask. I wish you to be a character witness on my behalf during the trial. I don't need or want you to lie for me. Just tell the truth about how I saved the lives of two Narns that were attacked by three Centauri. I want you to know that I did this act to save the Honor of the Narn involved. Ambassador, we all have secrets we don't want let out. I will be in your dept if you do this for me.


I would like to send a letter to Gem'Toth:

Gem, can you be a character witness on my behalf? Being a new member of your security detail, it was my obligation to protect you. I will explain what happened in more detail when you get here.


I would like to send a letter to L'Don:

Captain L'Don, I would like you to be a character witness on my behalf in the trial of murder. I'm sure you have heard what has happened and I need you as a friend to tell them what kind of man I am. Serving you on your ship for the last couple years and becoming your friend, you know I am not capable of cold blooded murder.


Max's Defense:

Max Wolf is being accused of murder in the first degree. Now Mr. Wolf did indeed kill the Narn in question. Mr. Wolf, was also not in an immediat danger from the Narn in question. Did Mr. Wolf fear for his life or the life of his employer? Yes! Did he hold the Honor of the Narn in question above all else? Yes!

Every one has read what supposedly happened that faithfull day in the docking bay bathroom. But what you don't know is the background of why it happened that way. Mr. Wolf was confronted by Zar'Lorn and was told that he has sworn a Chon'Kar against his employer Gem'Toth. His business is security, it was and still is his responsibility to protect his employer. By human laws, Mr. Wolf would be held responsible for letting Zar'Lorn go knowing that he has sworn to kill Gem. If something happened to Gem, then Mr. Wolf would be an accessory to murder. He couldn't turn him into the authoritiesties in Narn space, cause Chon'Kar is not illegal there and it is a major form of Honor to fulfill it. Thats why the "witnesses" didn't stay too long in the bathroom when they heard that mentioned. Mr. Wolf has spent the last few years on board a Narn Ship. He has studied the culture and psycology of the Narns. With this in mind he knew that there was nothing he could do to stop the Chon'Kar. He knew that Zar'Lorn would not stop until it was satisfied. And he also knew that being a new member of the security force ran by Gem'Toth, he would be called upon to protect her, there fore with that knowledge he knew his life was in danger as well any other member of the security force that would be there to protect Gem'Toth. His life was in danger, maybe not at that very moment but it was in danger. If I gave you the opportunity to go back in time and kill the Centauri Emperor that gave the order to enslave the Great Narn race, would you take that opportunity to kill him no matter what the consequences?

Which leads us to why he pulled the trigger. The first lesson of G'Lon teaches us about Honor. The second teaches us about justice and retribution, and within that he teaches us about the Chon'Kar. You can not withdraw the Chon'Kar without sacrificing ones own Honor. Mr. Wolf knew this yet he still gave Zar'Larn a choice. End it now or die, to keep his Honor. Zar'Lorn chose to end his life and keep his Honor. He told Mr. Wolf to kill him and thats what he did, with Zar'Lorn's honor intact. He died with honor, as the teachings of G'Lon have taught us.

So, when going to vote for guilty or innocents, keep in mind that Max Wolf was one: Doing his job, and protecting his employer, two: He followed the rules of Narn culture and society, and Three: he did what was requested of him to safe the honor of the Narn Zar'Lorn.

thank you for your time and attention.
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Postby El Cid » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:45 pm

I stand corrected.

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Postby El Cid » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:16 pm

I would like to send a letter to G'Kar:

Honorable Ambassador G'Kar. I have a favor to ask. I wish you to be a character witness on my behalf during the trial. I don't need or want you to lie for me. Just tell the truth about how I saved the lives of two Narns that were attacked by three Centauri. I want you to know that I did this act to save the Honor of the Narn involved. Ambassador, we all have secrets we don't want let out. I will be in your dept if you do this for me.


RESPONSE: G'Kar will review the reports and then does as you request. He even speaks highly of your honor and that he is certain that the dead Narn was at fault.


I would like to send a letter to Gem'Toth:

Gem, can you be a character witness on my behalf? Being a new member of your security detail, it was my obligation to protect you. I will explain what happened in more detail when you get here.


RESPONSE: Gem's response to the court simply states that since you were her employee, it was your duty to protect her and her father, Je'Toth. Since that is the case, you acted in the Toth's family's place to protect them from an unwarranted Chon'Kar. She provides a recording of the incident on the Xon's Demise. This shows that the Narn's father had betrayed Je'Toth to the Centauri and that after Gem saved Je'Toth and his son, the treasonous Narn was promised to be set free but that should he ever cross Je'Toth's path again, Je'Toth would personally kill him. She also contacts her father and requests that he provided the court with his sworn testimony that he had nothing to do with the Narn's father. That deposition is received shortly after Gem's response.


I would like to send a letter to L'Don:

Captain L'Don, I would like you to be a character witness on my behalf in the trial of murder. I'm sure you have heard what has happened and I need you as a friend to tell them what kind of man I am. Serving you on your ship for the last couple years and becoming your friend, you know I am not capable of cold blooded murder.


RESPONSE: L'Dom provided a moderately supportive deposition attesting to Max's character.


Max's Defense:

Max Wolf is being accused of murder in the first degree. Now Mr. Wolf did indeed kill the Narn in question. Mr. Wolf, was also not in an immediate danger from the Narn in question. Did Mr. Wolf fear for his life or the life of his employer? Yes! Did he hold the Honor of the Narn in question above all else? Yes!

Every one has read what supposedly happened that faithful day in the docking bay bathroom. But what you don't know is the background of why it happened that way. Mr. Wolf was confronted by Zar'Lorn and was told that he has sworn a Chon'Kar against his employer Gem'Toth. His business is security, it was and still is his responsibility to protect his employer. By human laws, Mr. Wolf would be held responsible for letting Zar'Lorn go knowing that he has sworn to kill Gem. If something happened to Gem, then Mr. Wolf would be an accessory to murder. He couldn't turn him into the authorities in Narn space, cause Chon'Kar is not illegal there and it is a major form of Honor to fulfill it. That's why the "witnesses" didn't stay too long in the bathroom when they heard that mentioned. Mr. Wolf has spent the last few years on board a Narn Ship. He has studied the culture and psychology of the Narns. With this in mind he knew that there was nothing he could do to stop the Chon'Kar. He knew that Zar'Lorn would not stop until it was satisfied. And he also knew that being a new member of the security force ran by Gem'Toth, he would be called upon to protect her, there fore with that knowledge he knew his life was in danger as well any other member of the security force that would be there to protect Gem'Toth. His life was in danger, maybe not at that very moment but it was in danger. If I gave you the opportunity to go back in time and kill the Centauri Emperor that gave the order to enslave the Great Narn race, would you take that opportunity to kill him no matter what the consequences?


OOC Note: As a member of the Narn court or jury, you should only use the information presented by Max, the depositions, vids, witnesses and the prosecutions case which I will include at the bottom of this reply.


Which leads us to why he pulled the trigger. The first lesson of G'Lon teaches us about Honor. The second teaches us about justice and retribution, and within that he teaches us about the Chon'Kar. You can not withdraw the Chon'Kar without sacrificing ones own Honor. Mr. Wolf knew this yet he still gave Zar'Larn a choice. End it now or die, to keep his Honor. Zar'Lorn chose to end his life and keep his Honor. He told Mr. Wolf to kill him and thats what he did, with Zar'Lorn's honor intact. He died with honor, as the teachings of G'Lon have taught us.

So, when going to vote for guilty or innocents, keep in mind that Max Wolf was one: Doing his job, and protecting his employer, two: He followed the rules of Narn culture and society, and Three: he did what was requested of him to safe the honor of the Narn Zar'Lorn.


The prosecution's case will be fairly simple.

1. Max will be placed at the scene of the crime. Numerous witnesses and security cameras show him and the victim going into the restroom. Vids and witnesses show Max leaving the restroom alone. All vids are time stamped so we know the exact time when they were recorded.

2. Physical evidence: Recall: He cleans the Ka'Toc, sheaths it. Holsters his PPG and puts the Narns PPG in his bag along with the Ka'Toc. He washes the blood off of him, changes cloths and walks out like nothing happened.
I believe that the possession of the Narn's PPG and Ka'Toc show that he is a thief as well as a murderer. This HUMAN does not deny murdering Zar'Lorn. He boasts of his crime!
Note: I don't believe that any amount of washing would remove all of the blood.

3. PPG in Max's position was recently fired. PPG trauma to the back of Narn's head and neck is consistent with Max's PPG and shows that the shot was fired from close range.

4. No sign of a struggle at the murder scene.

5. I expect that the Narn's questioning Max would use force to get him to confess to his crime. We can role play that out if he'd like to. SLAP! WACK! "Talk human scum!" SLAP! "Confess! We know you murdered our brother Narn!" "PUNCH! "How much did the Centauri pay you!?" . . .

Of course this proves unnecessary as Max admits that he killed Zar'Lorn..



Comments and discussion are welcome.
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Postby El Cid » Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:39 am

There is one other little detail assuming that Max is found innocent of killing the Narn.

He did take the Narn's PPG and Ka'Toc.

That is theft.

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Postby frobisher » Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:19 am

El Cid wrote:He did take the Narn's PPG and Ka'Toc.

That is theft.
Worse than that, the theft of the Ka'Toc is probably cause enough for a family Chon'Kar to be called against him. The PPG is merely a weapon after all...
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Postby PottsBr » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:55 pm

The depositions would seem to indicate that the incident in question would be deemed appropriate had the defendant been a Narn (at least by another Narn). I believe that the letter from G-Kar, a high ranking member of the Ka'Rhi, would be enough to convince the court to treat the accused per the standards that would be applied were he a Narn.

As for the "theft" of the Ka'Toc, this is a simple matter, settled by the returning of the weapon to the Narn family in question with the simple explaination that had it not been removed from the scene it could have been stolen and lost to the family. In taking it, with the full intent of returning it, he was protecting their interests. No one will care about the PPG in this case.

Now we have the bulk of the evidence before us. We have a confession and accurate sequence of events, with little variation between the prosecution and defense as to what happened. We have sufficient testimony to lead us to believe that the accused version of events and the reasons for his actions are accurate. That brings us to the matter of Narn law.

What does Narn law say about this behavior? If the accused had been a Narn, would his actions have been legal. Would his explaination for the reasons for this killing amount to justifiable homicide according to Narn law. Again, I believe that the statement from G'Kar would be sufficient to have the court treat the accused as a Narn for these procedings.

As for the referrence in the defense statement to him being held responsible by human law for letting the defendant go, that won't wash. The prosecution will call an expert witness, no doubt an Earth prosecutor, and the prosecutor will say the guy's getting the Death of Personality if he had done this back home. That the only justification in an Earth court for murder would be in the defense of himself or another from a direct and immediate threat of death or serious injury. In Earth space he would be expected to report the suspected threat to the proper legal authorities and let them handle it, not partaken in vigilante justice.
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Postby shalazar_bation » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:36 am

But I am a member of a security detail, that protects "with Force". so it wouldn't be "vigilante justice".

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Postby PottsBr » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:27 am

Just because you are a licensed security officer with permission to use a weapon in the performance of your duties does not give you the right to misuse that force. Cops on the street can NOT just decide the guy is guilty and shoot him. There are laws against that sort of thing, even assuming that your license was valid in the juristiction where the crime was committed.

There was a Dirty Harry movie built around that very premise where a group of cops decided the courts weren't putting away the real bad guys and started murdering them. Needless to say, Harry was put on the case to solve the murders. When he discovered the truth, they asked him to join them. He refused. They had to kill him or go to jail. Needless to say, Harry was not killed and defeated the vigilante cops.

If the suspect (and he remains a suspect until convicted in a court of law) poses no immediate threat to yourself or another person, you can't kill him. Immediate means he is going to kill you now, not tomorrow, not an hour from now. The threat of future violence is not, legally speaking, grounds to kill him. It is grounds to notify the authorities and prepare to defend yourself.

The Narn was helpless, unarmed, and of no threat to anyone. You can't kill him because of what he might do in the future. That decision has to be based on the situation at that moment. If you'd confronted him in the bathroom, had your discussion, he'd drawn his sword and attacked, THEN you could have shot him. Similarly, if you had been present when he attempted to kill your employer, again you would be justified in using force to stop him.

As soon as he was rendered harmless, your right to use force against him expired. The narn should have been turned over to the proper authorities for trial. As the Narn are likely to say that under the laws of the Chon'Kar he is free to go, then other steps might be required. Did he violate any laws in EA space in the persuit of his mission? Smuggle him across the border and turn him over to the authorities there.

It is possible that no alternatives existed, in which case you have a problem. You solved it by murdering him in cold blood. Others might have come up with other equally illegal, but maybe less offensive, ways of dealing with the situation. Some might simply have left him and prepared for his next move.

In the end, while your action may have been in character for the PC that performed it, it was still brutal and illegal and showed a dispationate disregard for life on the part of the sociopath who did it.
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Postby PottsBr » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:34 am

If you really wanted to try and make this a justifiable killing, you should have let him go, maybe shoved him to the back of the bathroom. Stepped back from him, keeping him at gunpoint. Tossed the sword to him, and told him that he could leave the sword and walk away from his Chon'Kar, or take up the sword and go through you to complete it.

It is likely he would have grabbed up the sword and tried to kill you (that whole honor thing). Then, he poses an immediate threat to your life. Now you can shoot him. Best if you have a witness or two to back up that you shot him while he was coming at you with the sword.

If he chooses to abandon the sword and leave, maybe it's all over, or maybe he'll turn up again. That's something you deal with later, and be alert for. Maybe hire someone to keep an eye on him so you know when he decides to come after your client again.

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