4th preview is up

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yipwyg
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4th preview is up

Postby yipwyg » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:28 am

Looks interesting.

little info on cults, fatigue, vision, and improving characters.

It looks like the abilities you can get for your character are sort of like feats that you buy with experience. Each ability has a hero point cost as well as prerequisites, hero points might be sort of like xp.
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby Adept » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:29 am

yipwyg wrote: It looks like the abilities you can get for your character are sort of like feats that you buy with experience. Each ability has a hero point cost as well as prerequisites, hero points might be sort of like xp.
Not quite, I think. The examples at the last page seem to have been rare abilities for heroically skilled individuals. The (skill 90+) was always a significant threshold in RQ, and means a true mastery of the skill. The stat-requirement was a nice touch.

Some people seem to be thinking that the new RQ is coming out rediculously overpowered, but at least with RQ2/3 it was a question of gamemastering style. Those games could rapidly escalate to power gaming worthy of a any D&D group, but it didn't need to be so...
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estarriol
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby estarriol » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:24 am

Adept wrote:
yipwyg wrote: It looks like the abilities you can get for your character are sort of like feats that you buy with experience. Each ability has a hero point cost as well as prerequisites, hero points might be sort of like xp.
Not quite, I think. The examples at the last page seem to have been rare abilities for heroically skilled individuals. The (skill 90+) was always a significant threshold in RQ, and means a true mastery of the skill. The stat-requirement was a nice touch.

Some people seem to be thinking that the new RQ is coming out rediculously overpowered, but at least with RQ2/3 it was a question of gamemastering style. Those games could rapidly escalate to power gaming worthy of a any D&D group, but it didn't need to be so...
Well it will be nice for progression beyond the 90% mark, which is where RQ2 used to hit the buffers, yes at 100% you could split etc, but other than cult you sort of ground to a halt in character terms, the goals etc were then all in game. Having new things to acheive will be nice.

They have left fatigue in, oh dear, I hate fatigue systems, I find them clunky cumbersome and a pain in the backside. If they have retained the fatigue from RQ3 and the missile hit locations as well as combat ones I shall be sadly disappointed.
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Postby SteveMND » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:24 am

Wow, how depressing. I just cancelled my pre-order at Amazon for this now. :(

I was hoping for a rework of the BRP system, but the previews have make it clear that there are enough sweeping changes to the game system that it's no longer a "buy it sight-unseen" kinda thing for me.

Ah well, I suppose now to wait for it to hit my FLGS and sit down and see the whole thing...
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby Adept » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:55 am

estarriol wrote:
They have left fatigue in, oh dear, I hate fatigue systems, I find them clunky cumbersome and a pain in the backside. If they have retained the fatigue from RQ3 and the missile hit locations as well as combat ones I shall be sadly disappointed.
I _like_ the new fatigue system. It looks easy and functional. A far cry from counting enc points and always subtracting the changing percentile from agility skills and spellcasting.

Also the separate melee/missile table makes a lot of sense, and was never a bother. That's the first complaint about it that I've heard. Personally I prefer a more detailed one (like in Hârnmaster) that will tell you if you hit somebody in the knee, the throat or even the groin. Still, that would propably be a bit more detail than the new RQ is shooting for.
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Postby Adept » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:57 am

SteveMND wrote:Wow, how depressing. I just cancelled my pre-order at Amazon for this now. :(

I was hoping for a rework of the BRP system, but the previews have make it clear that there are enough sweeping changes to the game system that it's no longer a "buy it sight-unseen" kinda thing for me.

Ah well, I suppose now to wait for it to hit my FLGS and sit down and see the whole thing...
Uh, Steve... Why would you happily buy a system that is near identical to the one you are using already, and are unhappy if the system has actually been reworked? I'd be really disappointed to get RQ2 with new covers. I already have RQ2 in my shelf!
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estarriol
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby estarriol » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:28 pm

Adept wrote:
estarriol wrote:
They have left fatigue in, oh dear, I hate fatigue systems, I find them clunky cumbersome and a pain in the backside. If they have retained the fatigue from RQ3 and the missile hit locations as well as combat ones I shall be sadly disappointed.
I _like_ the new fatigue system. It looks easy and functional. A far cry from counting enc points and always subtracting the changing percentile from agility skills and spellcasting.

Also the separate melee/missile table makes a lot of sense, and was never a bother. That's the first complaint about it that I've heard. Personally I prefer a more detailed one (like in Hârnmaster) that will tell you if you hit somebody in the knee, the throat or even the groin. Still, that would propably be a bit more detail than the new RQ is shooting for.
The runequest combat system could be quite slow at the best of times, the fatigue and 2 sets of extra hit locations just slowed it down further, especially for the GM if there were a range of non-humanoid monsters.

As to fatigue I always reckoned in combat you both tired equally so ignore it, and outside of combat, who actually cares?
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby Urox » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:44 pm

I am a little puzzled by the illustration on the first page -- "Lay Member of the Cult of the Storm King"

My Second Age is rusty, but I am curious if this is a generic application of the cult (boo), or a more accurate depiction of some localized Second Age Orlanthi...
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Postby SteveMND » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:50 pm

Uh, Steve... Why would you happily buy a system that is near identical to the one you are using already, and are unhappy if the system has actually been reworked? I'd be really disappointed to get RQ2 with new covers. I already have RQ2 in my shelf!
I was hoping for a "cleaning up" of the BRP as seen in RQ3, not a complete overhaul of the system. There were several things in RQ3 (which I use as my standard over RQ2; I haven't found an RP system I like better) that could stand to use some fine tuning and such, and I was especially looking forward to such a system made as OGL (which of course RQ1-3 is not).

With the new preview -- especially the way they changed fatigue -- I don't have enough confidence in the new game anymore to buy it sight unseen. Maybe fatigue was the only major element of the RQ game they changed, and I'll still like the new system, but I'll need to sit down and look over the whole deal now before dropping 60 bucks on it.

Of course, while some people like me are concerned that they may have changed too much, other people in the thread may be thinking that they haven't changed enough. I suppose that's the nature of the beast, after all. Can't please everyone all the time...
My Second Age is rusty, but I am curious if this is a generic application of the cult (boo), or a more accurate depiction of some localized Second Age Orlanthi...
Remember, if the MGPRQ is supposed to be an Open Gaming Product, it's very likely that the Core rulebooks will almost have to be 'generic' in that sense. It appears that the MGPRQ is just the rules system, and the Glorantha/Second Age is a seperate MGP setting to work with those new rules. An OGL publication by definition means the rules mechanics and the flavor/setting are two seperate things.
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Postby homerjsinnott » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:59 pm

SteveMND wrote:
Uh, Steve... Why would you happily buy a system that is near identical to the one you are using already, and are unhappy if the system has actually been reworked? I'd be really disappointed to get RQ2 with new covers. I already have RQ2 in my shelf!
I was hoping for a "cleaning up" of the BRP system, not a complete overhaul of the system. There were several things in RQ3 (which I use as my standard over RQ2; I haven't found a RP system I like better) that could stand to use some fine tuning and such, and I was especially looking forward to such a system made as OGL (which of course RQ1-3 is not).

With the new preview -- especially the way they changed fatigue -- I don't have enough confidence in the new gameanymore to buy it sight unseen. Maybe fatigue was the only major element of the RQ game they changed, and i'll still like the new system, but I'll need to sit down and look over the whole deal now before dropping 60 bucks on it.

Of course, while some people like me think that they may have changed too much, other people in the thread may be thinking that they havn't changed enough. I suppose that's the nature of the beast, after all. Can't please everyone all the time...
My Second Age is rusty, but I am curious if this is a generic application of the cult (boo), or a more accurate depiction of some localized Second Age Orlanthi...
Remember, if the MGPRQ is supposed to be an Open Gaming Product, it's very likely that the Core rulebooks will be 'generic' in that sense. It appears that the MGPRQ is just the rules system, and the Glorantha/Second age is a seperate system to work with the new rules. An OGL publication by definition means the rules mechanics and the flavor/setting are two seerate things.



You can always buy BRPG delux, out soon.
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Postby Urox » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:30 pm

SteveMND wrote: Remember, if the MGPRQ is supposed to be an Open Gaming Product, it's very likely that the Core rulebooks will almost have to be 'generic' in that sense. It appears that the MGPRQ is just the rules system, and the Glorantha/Second Age is a seperate MGP setting to work with those new rules. An OGL publication by definition means the rules mechanics and the flavor/setting are two seperate things.
Wow, how depressing. I just cancelled my pre-order at Amazon for this now. :(

I was hoping for a rework of the BRP system, but the previews have make it clear that there are enough sweeping changes to the game system that it's no longer a "buy it sight-unseen" kinda thing for me.

Ah well, I suppose now to wait for it to hit my FLGS and sit down and see the whole thing...
Given the above, I am going to hold off pre-ordering as well.

I (and almost everyone I game with) hated how RQ3 was made generic (boo Cormac) and how you had to reapply Glorantha to it -- it was much easier to remove Gloranth from RQ2 for a more generic setting.
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Re: 4th preview is up

Postby estarriol » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:37 pm

Urox wrote:I am a little puzzled by the illustration on the first page -- "Lay Member of the Cult of the Storm King"

My Second Age is rusty, but I am curious if this is a generic application of the cult (boo), or a more accurate depiction of some localized Second Age Orlanthi...
I think its a sign of the generic nature of the RQ, so a sample cult member.
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Postby GbajiTheDeceiver » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:43 pm

I don't like these. At all.

The new fatigue rules ain't that bad. Combat, as a medium activity, will require batches of 10 minutes for the average character between fatigue rolls - a hell of a lot better than every round. An abstract fatigue rankings table like that given is just not RQ, however.

The "hero points" thing stinks to high hell, may the Gibbering Bugs of Malia devour it's entrails while it lies thrashing and screaming and begging for mercy in the Great Pit of Dung. It's just d20 Feats by another name to me. Unless I'm seeing it out of context, and it's really intended to represent special Cult abilities, like we had with Humakt and Yelmalio. I suppose the key words here are "Most characters who come in search of such abilities..." - that would imply that it's not a normal part of character progression.

And is that a misprint in Battle Fury? Surely STR and CON for damage modifier should be STR and SIZ?

And a Resilience skill test as well as Persistence now??? Again, not seeing the full context may be misleading, but I think we're wandering too far into Saving Throw country. Fingers crossed we're really just talking fancy names for CON x 5 and POW x 5 here.....

I'm totally baffled by how these things can be acquired abilities, under any circumstances. Something like "Born to the Saddle" is not the kind of thing you suddenly attain when you turn 35, despite having been riding horses (or whatever) for the past 20 years. That makes no sense, and is not the RQ style. Hopefully they don't just spring out of nowhere - there needs to be some kind of logical framework around them.

The D&D rules were like the 10 commandments: "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" stuff. The RQ rules were like the laws of physics, where everything made sense as part of a greater framework of how things worked. The kinda stuff in this preview is where not having the full context can definitely be damaging. All of these may be totally innocent, but they do not fit in the RQ style (where everything made sense) as they are presented.

OK, so I didn't expect an RQ 2 or 3 reworking, so changes are fine by me, but I sure did think it was reasonable to expect that any changes that would be made would have generally been in keeping with the spirit and style of the originals. This stuff is not.
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Postby estarriol » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:12 pm

I am holding judgement on the Hero Points thing until I see how your earn them, I can see potential there, but it rests on how its handled.

I noted the Str and Con thing, but put this down to an early draft, and Mongoose have occasional issues with proof reading.... Don't you Old Bear?
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Postby Harshax » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:55 pm

I'm totally cool with fatigue systems. They're always options, IMO, as mechanics such as these rarely appear in monster/NPC stat-blocks, and when they appear in adventures, it's usually as an illustrative example of the mechanics and rarely as a scenario challenge.

What I don't like are those special abilities on the last page of the preview. What I like about BRP/RQ, is the fact that one does not need a two-page summary of feats, rule-exception based character tweaks, various power-ups. I'm concerned that these "Hero Points" and "Heroic Abilities" are going to be very prevalent in adventure supplements.

I could forgive the Rune-Touched System, almost. . .

(PS - I'd never buy an RPG sight-unseen, so my final opinion will be reserved for when I have the book in hand.)
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Postby SteveMND » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:02 pm

You know, it always seemed to me that the RQ3 fatigue system was the height of simplicity in action. You have your action in combat, and when you're done, mark off a fatigue point. If your fatigue is in the negatives, then your rolls suffer the same penalty. You're at -4 fatigue? Your skills are at -4 percentiles. Simple as pie.

Actually, dealing with fatigue caused one of the most notable fights in my campaigns; my Yelmalian spearfighter was fighting a Dark Troll one on one. It was an almost embarrasingly even-matched fight that went on forever, and we both reached the point of exhaustion simultaneously.

For several rounds, the amount of fatigue we got back after collapsing from the strain of fighting were rolled equally, so we kept taking a couple of feeble swing at each other, hoping to get lucky, only to collapse again, gasping for breath.

It reminded me of any number of those classic Hollywood fight scenes where the hero and the villain beat each other senseless, and are on their hands and knees, choking and wheezing as they try and gain the upper hand... :)

Somehow, I don't see the new fatigue rules being able to easily provide that sort of nail-biting experience. :cry:
Last edited by SteveMND on Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Archer » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:04 pm

I have seen Hero Points in a BRP clone before, and I have a strong suspicion that this might be something like that. In that system you gained Hero Points by doing heroic things (according to the culture to which you belonged). With these Hero Points you buy heroic abilities, latent or trained abilities that made the character more heroic than the run of the mill character.
These were sort of like an early version of feats, but much less complicated, and much easier to keep track of, especially since very few characters had them.

Taking into account that the RQ rules will be generic, I see no problem if this is how this works, as much of the RQ rules are a framework that will be used for more than one setting.
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Postby andakitty » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:36 pm

The thing I am worried about is, does gaining an 'ability' to decapitate at 90% with a 2h axe or sword mean, under the rules, that it's not possible to inflict a decapitating attack unless you have that level of skill and that specific ability? If it is like the old mastery rule in SB1 (can train and get riposte at 90%+), except that it applies to different weapons/skills in different ways, then I can live with it. If it is a mechanic emulating D&D feats it might be a deal breaker for me. Any thoughts about this?
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Postby Archer » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:10 pm

andakitty wrote:The thing I am worried about is, does gaining an 'ability' to decapitate at 90% with a 2h axe or sword mean, under the rules, that it's not possible to inflict a decapitating attack unless you have that level of skill and that specific ability? If it is like the old mastery rule in SB1 (can train and get riposte at 90%+), except that it applies to different weapons/skills in different ways, then I can live with it. If it is a mechanic emulating D&D feats it might be a deal breaker for me. Any thoughts about this?
I would guess that you still can decapitate someones head without such an abilities. The abilities are probably there to allow you to make heroic characters, that are "heroic" in some aspect or another.
So it is somewhat like the mastery abilities, but it is also mostly something else.
At least that is my assumption.
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Postby GbajiTheDeceiver » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:01 pm

I'm far more concerned about how one could suddenly become "Born to the Saddle" a significant portion of the way into one's life. That's just plain Wrong and Vile.

Call it "Horsemastery" or "Enhanced Riding Ability" or whatever, but please please please NOT "Born to the Saddle". If basic stuff like that is done badly, it's not a nice omen. It just doesn't fit with the RQ feel, which we have been promised so much these rules will replicate. In fact, none of these things do.

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