Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobility

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Rick
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:29 pm

That was part of the whole concept - when you talk about a specific hereditary noble, you are really talking about a family. The titular noble and his immediate family group (wife, children) are at the top of the family and are the ones everyone sees as the nobility, but he is going to have cousins and other family members looking after business interests, acting as advisors, go-betweens and liaisons and doing the 101 things that need to get done behind the scenes for the noble to administer his region. Very much like a hereditary family business functions.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby tanksoldier » Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:35 pm

Rick wrote:Very much like a hereditary family business functions.
True to an extent.

However, a rich business man doesn't directly control the functions of government.

He can have influence, but he don't appoint judges, dog catchers and cops. Hie word isn't literally law. He may have a large security contingent, it may LOOK like a private army, but it isn't ACTUALLY a private army.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:12 pm

Reynard wrote:Realized too that government type and social classes are two different things. A Participating Democracy or an oligarchy can still have class based on wealth, position and/or occupation as any feudal system. Our use of the term nobility crosses government types as a class and has many names in fields of politics and business as well as a wealth group.
Do imperial nobles have trial by combat? Say one noble has a disagreement with another, but instead of calling lawyers they pull out swords and have a duel!
Rick
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:44 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Reynard wrote:Realized too that government type and social classes are two different things. A Participating Democracy or an oligarchy can still have class based on wealth, position and/or occupation as any feudal system. Our use of the term nobility crosses government types as a class and has many names in fields of politics and business as well as a wealth group.
Do imperial nobles have trial by combat? Say one noble has a disagreement with another, but instead of calling lawyers they pull out swords and have a duel!
Nope - not in the 3I. See, this is why I thought you'd like the Aslan - they do these things!
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Nathan Brazil » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:42 am

For my D&D/Traveller conversion. I used the idea of scale for Social Standing as found in the Book 8: Dilettante Book pg 33 and apply the idea of nobility on that basis. And yes, I included Deity Rankings as well, though their Social Standings are above human maximum.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Reynard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:20 am

"Do imperial nobles have trial by combat? Say one noble has a disagreement with another, but instead of calling lawyers they pull out swords and have a duel!"

Again, read first!

Dueling in many societies for hundreds of years, even recently, has been illegal yet the nobility have no problem justifying their honor with duels whether it be sword or pistol. If the classes are determine to beat their breasts in warrior fashion, they will!

Not every Imperial noble lives on some 'typical Imperial World' and that means there are laws or at least customs not always in step with the expected Imperial Way. Dueling can be very common where military class has importance while another world even nearby and harboring an Imperial family line would be absolutely abhorrent to the concept. The general populace may never know or let the nobles kill themselves off. So yeah, some may duel to the death while others do a ritual hostile takeover. It's a big Traveller Universe.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:42 pm

What you are talking about is a custom of some planetary societies. While I agree that dueling may well be legal or indeed commonplace on some planets within the boundaries of the Imperium, it is not a legal form among 3I nobles.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Reynard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:41 pm

That's what I said. On Earth, it was and is mostly illegal but they do it anyhow and I'm sure that would happen the same way in the Imperium. Making something illegal doesn't stop it. Telling the rich and powerful something is illegal is just a challenge to do it.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:09 pm

Reynard wrote:"Do imperial nobles have trial by combat? Say one noble has a disagreement with another, but instead of calling lawyers they pull out swords and have a duel!"

Again, read first!

Dueling in many societies for hundreds of years, even recently, has been illegal yet the nobility have no problem justifying their honor with duels whether it be sword or pistol. If the classes are determine to beat their breasts in warrior fashion, they will!

Not every Imperial noble lives on some 'typical Imperial World' and that means there are laws or at least customs not always in step with the expected Imperial Way. Dueling can be very common where military class has importance while another world even nearby and harboring an Imperial family line would be absolutely abhorrent to the concept. The general populace may never know or let the nobles kill themselves off. So yeah, some may duel to the death while others do a ritual hostile takeover. It's a big Traveller Universe.
I'd like my 3I to have some rough edges, I don't want it entirely civilized place, one bit of an anachronism is the fact that they have some sort of nobility in the first place, most countries do not have nobles that exercise real political power, the UK is a bit of an exception, as they have the House of Lords, even their the nobles and the royals have mostly symbolic power. Most of the countries of Europe don't have a monarch anymore, the exceptions are the UK, Spain, Norway, Monti Carlo, Andorra, Luxemberg, and I believe that's it, most other countries are Republics or they are dictatorships, Russia and Belarus are the latter.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:06 pm

You forgot Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark in that list. There are more than you think. Monaco (including Monte Carlo) and Andorra are principalities, but only Monaco really counts as a monarchy as one of the Princes of Andorra is the President of France.

Russia and Belarus are not dictatorships, Tom, they are Republics. Please do not allow your prejudices to spill over onto the forum.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby rust » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:19 pm

Rick wrote:You forgot Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark in that list ...
... and King Philippe of Belgium and Prince Hans-Adam of Liechtenstein
are not amused when they are ignored ... :lol:
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby sideranautae » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:37 pm

There are no 1st world monarchies, in countries of any real size, where the monarch has much real power over the government. That started disintegrating shortly before the Age of Reason and accelerated thereafter.
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Rick
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:45 pm

rust wrote:
Rick wrote:You forgot Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark in that list ...
... and King Philippe of Belgium and Prince Hans-Adam of Liechtenstein
are not amused when they are ignored ... :lol:
Oops. My bad. Sorry. :cry:
There are no 1st world monarchies, in countries of any real size, where the monarch has much real power over the government. That started disintegrating shortly before the Age of Reason and accelerated thereafter.
True in that they are all a form of constitutional monarchies, and that the absolute monarchies either adapted or were replaced, but they all have some control over their governments. I can't think of a single example of a country having a monarchy independent of the government.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby sideranautae » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:52 pm

Rick wrote:
rust wrote:
Rick wrote:You forgot Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark in that list ...
... and King Philippe of Belgium and Prince Hans-Adam of Liechtenstein
are not amused when they are ignored ... :lol:
Oops. My bad. Sorry. :cry:
There are no 1st world monarchies, in countries of any real size, where the monarch has much real power over the government. That started disintegrating shortly before the Age of Reason and accelerated thereafter.
True in that they are all a form of constitutional monarchies, and that the absolute monarchies either adapted or were replaced, but they all have some control over their governments. I can't think of a single example of a country having a monarchy independent of the government.
My point is. They have VERY little control in most cases. Do you know why that happened after the Age of Reason? It destroyed the concept of Divine Right. So, unless the basic nature of humans is totally ignored, you wouldn't have a 3I in its written form. And of COURSE you wouldn't have a monarchy independent of a gov. Parliaments learned that mistake the hard way CENTURIES ago.
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Rick
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:02 pm

My point is. They have VERY little control in most cases. Do you know why that happened after the Age of Reason? It destroyed the concept of Divine Right. So, unless the basic nature of humans is totally ignored, you wouldn't have a 3I in its written form. And of COURSE you wouldn't have a monarchy independent of a gov. Parliaments learned that mistake the hard way CENTURIES ago.
That is the difference between an absolute monarchy and a constitutional monarchy; the first rules by divine right, the second by the will of the people. Like I said, most absolute monarchies adapted and became constitutional ones. And yes - you could have a monarchy independent of the govt where the monarchy had no control or say in the running of it, and had no privileges.

Weirdly enough, some of the European Republics still have hereditary nobility (France and Italy for example), where the title is legally usable, but there are no attached legal privileges.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby sideranautae » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:12 pm

Rick wrote:. And yes - you could have a monarchy independent of the govt where the monarchy had no control or say in the running of it, and had no privileges.
I didn't say you couldn't. Weird reply.
Rick wrote:Weirdly enough, some of the European Republics still have hereditary nobility (France and Italy for example), where the title is legally usable, but there are no attached legal privileges.
It is weird because without hereditary nobility one could legally use a title. The US being an example.
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Rick
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:24 pm

That's true - you said 'wouldn't', not 'couldn't' - obviously my mistake.

Certainly the US could create its own hereditary nobility, but without that, calling yourself the 'Marquis of New York' has no legal standing, unless you changed your name to 'Jack Jones, Marquis of New York'.

There is one European state that is still governed by an absolute monarch, ruling by divine right; it's the Vatican city.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Reynard » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:36 pm

Noble titles tick off the lower classes in the US, something about history and stuff. What the nobles that still control the country did was call themselves anything but a noble. The Small People, as one business man not too long ago referred to the majority of americans, are placated and a bit more docile to letting some be very rich for no reason and very, very in control. Sounds like history in repetition. Sounds like it could happen again and again in the future and not worry so much about niceties especially during a crisis like the Long Night.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Rick » Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:07 am

I think it is human nature to arrange a society into a hierarchy based on whatever values are currently popular - whether that is done by power, influence, money, threats, etc. makes no real difference in the end; people place some above them, some below and feel more comfortable by doing so.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: Comparing Imperial Nobility with medieval/fantasy Nobili

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:38 pm

Rick wrote:You forgot Netherlands, Sweden and Denmark in that list. There are more than you think. Monaco (including Monte Carlo) and Andorra are principalities, but only Monaco really counts as a monarchy as one of the Princes of Andorra is the President of France.

Russia and Belarus are not dictatorships, Tom, they are Republics. Please do not allow your prejudices to spill over onto the forum.
Like China you mean? The People's Republic of China? I guess calling something a "Republic" makes it one, so all we'd have to do is convince Emperor Stephron to call his Imperium a "Republic" and it would automatically be one, I am not that gullible I'm afraid.

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