designing logical world creation system

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sideranautae
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:13 pm

GypsyComet wrote: The RAW for Port and TL make more sense in the framework of a large trading
"

TL regardless makes no sense. Star port can be anything as you state, in a Large Empire.

You made no specific case for TL that holds any water. Only a statement of that is how it would "work". That isn't logic but, simply a statement with no supporting evidence.

If you change assumptions with no underlying logic, you get, illogic.

E.G. - civilizations forming in a system of a blue dwarf have +6 to TL score.

That IS a change in assumption. But, has no logical basis. I'm not saying the TL is impossible. It just makes no sense as presented. After studying all major canon on the subject that has come since the 3I was formalized, there is no logical explanation given by Marc. If you have read one from him you should let us know so we can correct assumptions. Mybe I missed a mag article by him in the '70's.
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Matt Wilson
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby Matt Wilson » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:34 pm

GypsyComet wrote:The RAW for Port and TL make more sense in the framework of a large trading empire with frequent traffic and mutually organized defense. The Ag world doesn't need native high tech to survive and prosper, and if it wants specific things it orders them from a nearby world that does make them. It isn't going to waste decades of time and effort developing stuff it can just buy on a three week turn around.
They make a little less sense if you figure that nobody's going to want to settle the non-garden worlds other than to make refueling depots. An airless world at a crossroads should have a thriving starport, but I'm not so sure about factories and other developments.

Is there a case to be made, given Traveller tech capabilities, that it would be easier and less expensive to build and maintain an industrial facility on an airless world or one with a hostile atmosphere? I'm approaching my worldbuilding mods from the conclusion that it's not, that any kind of settlement would be much better off on an earthlike world. But I am open to contrary opinions.

Of course, on account of the coolness factor of domed cities and underground passages and all that, I wouldn't eliminate settlements on those worlds altogether. What's the point of sci fi gaming if you can't have some kickass domed cities in there somewhere? :D
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:39 pm

Matt Wilson wrote: Of course, on account of the coolness factor of domed cities and underground passages and all that, I wouldn't eliminate settlements on those worlds altogether. What's the point of sci fi gaming if you can't have some kickass domed cities in there somewhere? :D
Absolutely. The easiest approach is to politically connect them to a very high TL world/entity. Later they broke away from the "mother" political entity. Etc., etc.
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GypsyComet
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby GypsyComet » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:38 pm

sideranautae wrote:TL regardless makes no sense.
This whole discussion presumes that everyone in it has the same definition of Tech Level and uses the same sociological and economic models. I'm not taking that bet and you shouldn't either.
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sideranautae
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:45 pm

GypsyComet wrote: This whole discussion presumes that everyone in it has the same definition of Tech Level and uses the same sociological and economic models.
I'm using the Traveller concept of TL's & homo sapiens as models for known behavior and macro econ. What are YOU using to base your posts on?

You still haven't answered Q's about your previous post to clarify.

I created this post to look for logical changes. Not random, arbitrary or undefined reasons to keep the illogical system the same. The latter is easy and requires no thought.
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GypsyComet
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby GypsyComet » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:17 pm

sideranautae wrote: You still haven't answered Q's about your previous post to clarify.
I see one question, and it isn't yours. Really, it is a question aimed at you. Allow me to reframe it for you: What role do hostile environments play in TL?

This is your ATU, in theory. If Venus is just as easy to build on as Mercury or Luna, then they should all have the same TL effects.
The existing TL charts are almost entirely about human-hostile environments (including simple overcrowding), progressive governance, and a perception, in the form of the Imperial Starport, of wider importance. If neither hostile environments nor external importance warrants a TL adjustment, then you are down to the permissiveness of society as represented by Government Type, and whatever else you come up with.
I created this post to look for logical changes.
The underlying assumptions, the "Givens" that logic is based on, must be understood before you can do that. You've already mentioned taking "the neighborhood" into account, but that is a method, not an assumption.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby GypsyComet » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:30 pm

sideranautae wrote:I'm using the Traveller concept of TL's & homo sapiens as models for known behavior...
So have both sides of this argument every other time it has come up in the last 30 years. A basic definition of TL is a multi-page argument, and has been before. There is also a tendency to view this all as a statistical exercise, leaving out the truth that Humans are illogical beings.
...and macro econ.
There are several schools of thought there, which may or may not be politically motivated in their modern acceptance. Traveller changes quite a bit based on the economic lens you use.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:31 pm

GypsyComet wrote: I see one question, and it isn't yours.
If you read through you'll see the query. Until then, adieu.
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sideranautae
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:38 pm

[quote="Matt Wilson"
Is there a case to be made, given Traveller tech capabilities, that it would be easier and less expensive to build and maintain an industrial facility on an airless world or one with a hostile atmosphere? I'm approaching my worldbuilding mods from the conclusion that it's not, that any kind of settlement would be much better off on an earthlike world. But I am open to contrary opinions[/quote]

Based on the pertinent info in Trav it would be incredibly more expensive and difficult to build an infrastructure on asteroids, Venus, Mars, Mercury type worlds. A huge chunk of Gross Product would be absorbed maintaining a habitat. The paradigm of "That which is seen, and that which is not seen" can be readily applied here, just changed to account for Life support expenditure.
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GypsyComet
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby GypsyComet » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:53 pm

An appeal for non-existent sources from the author you've already discarded as illogical is your idea of a discussion-stopping query?

You aren't going to find a pre-built "logical" replacement for the RAW, because there isn't one. YOU need to build something that will suit YOU, and recognize that no one else will like it like you do.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:04 am

The most important part of generating the non-sentient data about star systems, the solar nebula theory, has been falsified. This means rewriting where what type of planet can be in a system. GG's are likely to be anywhere and can be as small as size A.

More work to do...
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phavoc
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby phavoc » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:31 pm

An auto-generation system won't be able to handle the TL variances, especially when it comes to starports. If you want a more realistic model you'll have to be willing to step into the design process and make the necessary changes to create a proper economic model.

For instance, we see a number of Asian countries who are large ship builders and have been for decades. The necessary industrial infrastructure was pulled in from higher-tech nations and created to build the ships. But the tech didn't get disseminated to the rest of their country for a long time.

On the opposite side of the ship issue is that of breakers/salvage. The biggest salvage yards are located in India and use essentially TL 3-5 methods (welders and guys humping metal) to do the work.

How do you propose to work such inconsistencies into your model? And are you planning on fleshing out a system-wide design system? It makes more economic sense to expand within your own system (first at least, since most systems will have basic minerals in abundance) rather than going interstellar.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:07 pm

phavoc wrote:An auto-generation system won't be able to handle the TL variances, especially when it comes to starports.
It can on a close enough basis with a minimal GM look over. GM's SHOULD look over any area they create as there will always be a bit of customization based on campaign needs.

There will be 3 system to use depending on the maturity of that area of space. You are just used to Trav's wonky, one system fits an entire Empire mess.
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phavoc
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby phavoc » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:28 pm

sideranautae wrote:There will be 3 system to use depending on the maturity of that area of space. You are just used to Trav's wonky, one system fits an entire Empire mess.
Umm, the wonkiness as you describe it, predates Traveller. The same process (i.e. a universal generation system) has been in place for just about every game system ever made. At some point the amount of effort that is necessary to create and use a hyper-detailed system exceeds the effort of a ref just writing **** down that he likes and thinks will work for his adventure.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:34 pm

phavoc wrote:
Umm, the wonkiness as you describe it, predates Traveller.
REALLY? What pre '78 Interstellar RPG had this type of system generation before Traveller????

Inquiring minds REALLY want to know... Or, are you just typing random thoughts? 8)
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phavoc
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby phavoc » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:50 pm

sideranautae wrote:
phavoc wrote:
Umm, the wonkiness as you describe it, predates Traveller.
REALLY? What pre '78 Interstellar RPG had this type of system generation before Traveller????

Inquiring minds REALLY want to know... Or, are you just typing random thoughts? 8)
Here, first lets put this conversation into context. I'm going to highlight what you left out in my post. Then I'll prove you wrong.
phavoc wrote:Umm, the wonkiness as you describe it, predates Traveller. The same process (i.e. a universal generation system) has been in place for just about every game system ever made.
Amazingly enough there have been other game systems designed both before and after Traveller. Cherry picking your quotations and then basing your retort off that doesn't make your response automagically correct. And being snarky about it doesn't get you any board cred. So if your mind is truly inquiring and not closed you'll see that there is a world of knowledge and gaming systems that both pre-date and come after the Traveller game system.

Maybe I should first ask if you are aware of other gaming systems that allow referee's to create their worlds? And then ask if you've played any game other than Traveller?

I have mentioned this game before - Starfire. It has an economic model that Traveller doesn't (though it's more ship-combat based than personal RPG). The Star Wars RPG has a planetary generation system included. Then there's other games like GURPS (w/o Traveller) and Battletech. You can find the Battletech system generator online here:

http://bg.battletech.com/download/Inter ... pdf?28cf69

Generating a gaming universe isn't rocket science. Now creating one that is hyper-realistic probably falls within that arena. And it's still going to be guesswork, not "realistic", since we have no basis of reality to hypothesize exactly how a interstellar economic system would function. We only have historical pieces to draw upon.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby phavoc » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:15 am

For those that are interested, here is the page link to the StarGen computer program to generate systems and planets:

http://fast-times.eldacur.com/StarGen/RunStarGen.html
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby sideranautae » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:59 am

Okay, now that joke posts are over.

I will be creating 3 main flow charts for the sociological aspects of system gen. Only need one as far as physical system aspects are concerned.

The 3:
a) Old/established space
b) Distant frontier
c) Unknown/unexplored

For c I need to decide the frequency of sentient, high level life is on "Earth" type worlds. Then, how often those types reach various TL ranges. On Earth it is all over the map. Some people stagnated at Stone age. Some at medieval TL, etc.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby rust » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:05 pm

phavoc wrote: For instance, we see a number of Asian countries who are large ship builders and have been for decades. The necessary industrial infrastructure was pulled in from higher-tech nations and created to build the ships. But the tech didn't get disseminated to the rest of their country for a long time.

On the opposite side of the ship issue is that of breakers/salvage. The biggest salvage yards are located in India and use essentially TL 3-5 methods (welders and guys humping metal) to do the work.
One of the problems is that Traveller normally uses only one general
technology level which covers all of the many fields of technology, a
rather simplistic approach. A planet's industry may well be advanced
in one field of technology (e.g. habitats and life support systems on a
hostile planet) and retarded in other fields of technology (e.g. ground
transport on a water world). Since detailed planets are likely to have
unique combinations of environment and development they are also
likely to have unique mixes of advanced and retarded fields of techno-
logy - rather difficult to simulate with any system.
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Re: designing logical world creation system

Postby rust » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:19 pm

Another problem with Traveller's treatment of technology levels is
the relation between core worlds and frontier worlds. The usual
assumption is that core worlds have a higher technology level than
frontier worlds. However, this runs into the problem that new colo-
nies may use the most recent technology when they build up their
industry, and as a result may have on average more modern indus-
trial equipment than the core worlds. In my view a core with "old
industry" and a frontier with "new industry" is just as likely as the
traditional concept of a high-tech core and a low-tech frontier, es-
pecially when advanced automation reduces the importance of a
large workforce and there is no major difference in the education
systems' quality between core and frontier.

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