1st test Ship design from my new rules

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phavoc
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby phavoc » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:03 pm

sideranautae wrote:
GypsyComet wrote: The resulting ships will quickly blow the econ rules to smithereens, so I hope those are next on your house rules list.
No problem as there is no edition (besides perhaps GT) that has econ rules that are not totally insane to begin with. My system will be based on basic macro econ so can never be a problem with ship design as it stands.
It's impossible to create a realistic economic model in Traveller since (a) no real economic data exists, (b) the game mechanics imply a relative stasis between planets, (c) the game system has never really blown out a fully developed, or even partially developed system so you would have information upon which to create interstellar vs. intrastellar economics, and (d) it would have to be terribly complex to account for the trillions of non-PC's who were also performing economic trading.

The trade rules certainly could use some polishing, but beyond that it's a moot point about using econ theory application to a gaming environment.
sideranautae wrote:And, I have only looked to two rules sets for inspiration. MT & MGT SRD. And only for decoupling PP & JD for MT. I haven't pulled from any other. I haven't even looked at 8 different rules set in my life so you are completely wrong. Maybe less random hyperbole and more reasoned analysis...
Perhaps you put it in a different thread, but it's not listed in this one that you've never seen or read information from the other Traveller rule sets. Last time I checked nobody was a mind reader so unless it's explicitly stated otherwise Gypsy's comment has validity.

That seems like a pretty reasoned analysis to me.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:05 pm

phavoc wrote:
Perhaps you put it in a different thread, but it's not listed in this one that you've never seen or read information from the other Traveller rule sets. Last time I checked nobody was a mind reader so unless it's explicitly stated otherwise Gypsy's comment has validity.

That seems like a pretty reasoned analysis to me.
I stated that I hadn't read those and he continued to ignore that in subsequent post. So, no mind reading needed. PLEASE don't try to take this OT.

Thank you in advance.
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phavoc
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby phavoc » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:00 pm

sideranautae wrote:
phavoc wrote:
Perhaps you put it in a different thread, but it's not listed in this one that you've never seen or read information from the other Traveller rule sets. Last time I checked nobody was a mind reader so unless it's explicitly stated otherwise Gypsy's comment has validity.

That seems like a pretty reasoned analysis to me.
I stated that I hadn't read those and he continued to ignore that in subsequent post. So, no mind reading needed. PLEASE don't try to take this OT.

Thank you in advance.
I should have been more clear in my original post. You did, in fact respond to him that you had not seen the other rule sets, but only after he posted what he did. I should have pointed out the chronology and I did not. Which means, however, his post before yours had validity even as an assumptional statement.

I am still interested in hearing your response to the issues I raised concerning a more realistic trade model.

As to topic/thread drift, you should realize by now that this is a mostly unmoderated public forum. Thread drift is (of should) be an expectation of any poster since none of us can "own" a particular thread.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:08 pm

phavoc wrote:
I am still interested in hearing your response to the issues I raised concerning a more realistic trade model.
Well the 1st thing is with a realistic trade model is that those engaged in it have to be doing the job of traders in that type of scenario. Which means that they won't be flitting randomly from system to system as they will find it impossible to find good deals. Those will have been snatched up by permanent agents working planet side for large concerns. Also, you won't find the type of lopsided (buy the diamonds for Cr 1/ton and sell for Cr100/ton one parsec away) deals you get in the Trav system. The sellers are aware of the "The Market". If they aren't they will be made aware WELL before the goods make it anywhere close to a starport. So, PC's running around in ships will be relegated to hauling freight. Which is much easier to model based on traffic considerations and the like. Most of that has already been modeled fairly well and as close as needed.

Traveller players are the only ones I've encountered (and not close to all of them) who like playing "Papers & Green Grocers". But out of Trav players I've only found 1 or 2 who want to play that when it is done at all realistically. Why? Because to do it means not adventuring and spending all ones time making business contacts and scouring trading floors and the like.

p.s. I know it is a fairly unmoderated forum but when someone is trolling (as was that person) I will still nail them on threads I start. Just to keep the flotsam level down.
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phavoc
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby phavoc » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:04 pm

There's no real economic way small traders can compete against the larger established lines. Small traders basically have three options - speculative trade, plying their wares on smaller routes the big guys don't service, or offering faster delivery to ports/planets that the majors don't deal with directly.

Speculative trade is where heading to the bars and picking up rumors helps out. Or perhaps scanning the news feeds and finding out Planet X 6 parsecs away had a natural disaster or is having a boom that will temporarily change the market. During the gold rushes in both Alaska and California a number of enterprising merchants bought waaaayyy low (things like pans and shovels and other required mining equipment) and sold waaaayyyy high. That's more the exception than the rule, but since Traveller economics are relatively stagnant unless adjusted by a referee, your options for speculation are limited.

Free Traders and other PC-sized ships do have the opportunity to make credits plying the spacelanes to smaller markets. A lonely mining colony a week's trip away from the main planet will often welcome the opportunities for unexpected trade. Sure, most of their basic needs will be met via regular cargo runs, but I think most out of the way places are happy to pay for luxuries they don't normally get a chance at.

And in a similar vein, PC traders are able to set their own routes, so getting that 80Dtons of electronic equipment to Station X orbiting Planet Y 2 weeks faster than the regular cargo carriers will potentially work out. In business time is money and if the production were shut down for 2 weeks while the parts are in transit the corporation could lose millions of credits.

But all those, and more, rules regarding economic trading involve one thing - the referee. If you want something "realistic" you can't depend on die rolls really. You've got to outline complete economic systems for an entire star system and then link them together. At the end of the day PC's really won't have the economic footprint to even make a dent, so you have to ask yourself is all the effort worth the reward? For some, sure. But for most it works just as well to use what is there, perhaps tinkering just a little bit here and there.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Sun Jun 22, 2014 10:09 pm

phavoc wrote:There's no real economic way small traders can compete against the larger established lines. Small traders basically have three options - speculative trade, plying their wares on smaller routes the big guys don't service, or offering faster delivery to ports/planets that the majors don't deal with directly.
Of course not. They have to go to where the large lines aren't operating.
phavoc wrote:Speculative trade is where heading to the bars and picking up rumors helps out.
In a high tech time period, no. That's not where the data resides. The Star Wars Cantina scene isn't a good representation of how suppliers of legal goods operate.
phavoc wrote:Free Traders and other PC-sized ships do have the opportunity to make credits plying the spacelanes to smaller markets.


If there is good money to be made, it will attract others FAST. In short, it will even out. There's not really anything but small change to be made doing spec trade in a time period with high tech communications.

phavoc wrote:But all those, and more, rules regarding economic trading involve one thing - the referee.
Like I said, if someone wants to make BIG money trading, they won't be operating a star ship...
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby Matt Wilson » Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:38 pm

A realistic trading system would be something like you ask the player to roll a d6, and then whatever they tell you, you respond, "Great, your margin of profit is that many credits."

And then they say, "Dang. I guess we should go adventuring."
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:11 am

Matt Wilson wrote:A realistic trading system would be something like you ask the player to roll a d6, and then whatever they tell you, you respond, "Great, your margin of profit is that many credits."

And then they say, "Dang. I guess we should go adventuring."
Yep. :lol:

With my new ship rules, a "Scout" type ship will have lots of freight space. Enough to keep the PCs from starving in between adventuring.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby phavoc » Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:55 am

sideranautae wrote:
phavoc wrote:Speculative trade is where heading to the bars and picking up rumors helps out.
In a high tech time period, no. That's not where the data resides. The Star Wars Cantina scene isn't a good representation of how suppliers of legal goods operate.
Sure, you can do a lot of things from orbit via radio as you are inbound to the planet. But I saidspeculation, not full-on formal trade. Besides, using your skills to chat up potential shippers and finding leads is what RPG is all about. If I wanted to play spreadsheets-in-space I'd break out my Starfire rules and have at it.

It also depends on the TL and balkanization factors of the world you are heading towards. Earth would be considered balkanized and the cargo's you might find in Dijibouti may only be available if you had a local contact. When I have shipped bulk goods in the past I have called shipping companies who are known and have reputations to pick up the goods, usually sight un-seen. If the guy has the right uniform on and the right lettering is on the truck I'm good to go. But when I have couriered small packages I don't hire some dude off Spacer's Craigslist with his Free Trader to deliver my stuff. At least > I < wouldn't.
sideranautae wrote:
phavoc wrote:Free Traders and other PC-sized ships do have the opportunity to make credits plying the spacelanes to smaller markets.


If there is good money to be made, it will attract others FAST. In short, it will even out. There's not really anything but small change to be made doing spec trade in a time period with high tech communications.

All depends on the size of the market and how many ships are inbound/outbound that can even take on the cargo. Regularly scheduled freight to/from a backwater may or may not have any available cargo space to take on an unplanned-for cargo. That's where the speculation comes in for the PC, bopping into a system looking for underserved clients.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:47 pm

phavoc wrote:
sideranautae wrote:
phavoc wrote:Speculative trade is where heading to the bars and picking up rumors helps out.
In a high tech time period, no. That's not where the data resides. The Star Wars Cantina scene isn't a good representation of how suppliers of legal goods operate.
Sure, you can do a lot of things from orbit via radio as you are inbound to the planet. But I saidspeculation, not full-on formal trade. Besides, using your skills to chat up potential shippers and finding leads is what RPG is all about.
You wanted to know about realistic trade. Like I said, won't happen in a bar nor from a space ship. No one will make enough money doing that. Unrealistic trade rules can have you make a fortune in trade by hanging out at the local dog pound. It doesn't matter what a PC does. The GM creates a random table and says, "You found someone selling pure anagathics for Cr5 a dose when the market on every system within 20 p.c. buys for KCr10/dose. Apparently the manufacturer doesn't know how valuable the stuff is." :roll: :lol:

BTW, "speculation" IS full on trade. ;) How do you think most commodities on this planet are dealt with?
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby phavoc » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:49 pm

sideranautae wrote:You wanted to know about realistic trade. Like I said, won't happen in a bar nor from a space ship. No one will make enough money doing that. Unrealistic trade rules can have you make a fortune in trade by hanging out at the local dog pound. It doesn't matter what a PC does. The GM creates a random table and says, "You found someone selling pure anagathics for Cr5 a dose when the market on every system within 20 p.c. buys for KCr10/dose. Apparently the manufacturer doesn't know how valuable the stuff is." :roll: :lol:

BTW, "speculation" IS full on trade. ;) How do you think most commodities on this planet are dealt with?
Illicit cargoes or ones that don't quite have a good local pedigree aren't going to be put on the trader boards. It's going to be word of mouth and done on the down low. Traveller ship and trade mechanics are modeled more along the lines of what was around in the 1900's than in the 2000's.

Most commodities traded in the US are done through exchanges. I don't know any players that are interested in purchasing futures or speculating in flash-trading. But I think you are overlooking how many commodities make it to the market. The local cocoa producer in Africa doesn't trade in futures. He harvests when it's ready and takes his crop to the local market, assuming he can navigate his way through the local bandits setting up roadblocks, his truck not breaking down on the horrible roads, etc, and he sells to the local broker. The broker may or may not have contracts, but he needs to sell to an exporter if he's small, or exports directly if he's higher up in the food chain. And then the big western companies are able to tap into the market.

Some coffee houses have worked with local farming co-ops, but in the 2nd and 3rd world futures contracts and such are much less common because their crops are much more subject to boom and bust cycles, not to mention that they don't have access to things like crop insurance like a US farmer does.

Since we are talking about an RPG game, players need to have access to non-PC's to do the "role play" part of RPG. Traveller ain't Starfire (which if you haven't played it, it's all about economics, starship design and tactical/strategic warfare. There isn't any role play element, but it's more akin to what you are describing).
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby lordmalachdrim » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:18 pm

sideranautae wrote:
Either contribute or leave the thread please
No
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:01 pm

lordmalachdrim wrote:
sideranautae wrote:
Either contribute or leave the thread please
No
Reported for trolling.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby lordmalachdrim » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:51 pm

Just because you can not take what seemed like valid criticism of your pet project you took an immediately antagonistic tone with Gypsy and as such I felt the need to express my personal opinion of your response.

And trust me that is the only word I was left with after I removed every "attack" I had written in my initial response.

As for contributing to your thread...this one like all the others seems to boil down to the following:

1) The guys that wrong X were a bunch of incompetents and I can do better.
2) Defense against any questions: My stuff is based on realism and you are an idiot for disagreeing with me.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:53 pm

lordmalachdrim wrote:Just because you can not take what seemed like valid criticism of your pet project
Reported for trolling.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby lordmalachdrim » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:02 pm

sideranautae wrote:Reported for trolling.

And responding to a post with just "Reported for trolling" is not in and of itself antagonistic?
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby sideranautae » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:06 pm

lordmalachdrim wrote:
sideranautae wrote:Reported for trolling.

And responding to a post with just "Reported for trolling" is not in and of itself antagonistic?
reported.
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Re: 1st test Ship design from my new rules

Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Guys, keep it friendly...
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