FTL starship today

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Reynard
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:47 pm

Take a look at the size of those rings in the picture. Any retractable landing structure, and I don't see such structures evident on the photos, would need a lot of storage room for the extension they would need. The shuttle, by comparison, has stubbly landing gear. Picture the shuttle with two ring fore and aft about twice the diameter of the main craft.

If maneuvering is done with the warp field, even at sublight velocities, the field is distorting time and space as its motive form. It would probably vector by adjusting the field to turn and pitch. The rings might even have the ability to reverse their function to slow, reverse and stop the ship but I think as long as it is active the ship is moving.

Another problem about an extended field of time space distortion is anything near the field will probably be affected disastrously like being twisted and crushed in a wave. Having the field active would prevent any landing structure from contacting the surface that is being torn up without also touching the field itself. Just treat the ship like a deep water vessel and equip a landing boat. For this ship, it seems fat too small to carry one so that's why I consider it good for orbital survey possibly carrying a small lander like craft to survey surface conditions.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:59 pm

Reynard wrote:Take a look at the size of those rings in the picture. Any retractable landing structure, and I don't see such structures evident on the photos, would need a lot of storage room for the extension they would need. The shuttle, by comparison, has stubbly landing gear. Picture the shuttle with two ring fore and aft about twice the diameter of the main craft.

If maneuvering is done with the warp field, even at sublight velocities, the field is distorting time and space as its motive form. It would probably vector by adjusting the field to turn and pitch. The rings might even have the ability to reverse their function to slow, reverse and stop the ship but I think as long as it is active the ship is moving.

Another problem about an extended field of time space distortion is anything near the field will probably be affected disastrously like being twisted and crushed in a wave. Having the field active would prevent any landing structure from contacting the surface that is being torn up without also touching the field itself. Just treat the ship like a deep water vessel and equip a landing boat. For this ship, it seems fat too small to carry one so that's why I consider it good for orbital survey possibly carrying a small lander like craft to survey surface conditions.
What about it just hovering in the atmosphere and releasing an air/raft rather than a full shuttle? We don't know how long the warp drive was designed to operate, no reason why it shouldn't be able to hover within a planetary atmosphere for weeks at a time. Or the ship could hover long enough to release an air/raft then go into synchronous orbit, shutting down the warp to save energy until called for again to pick up the air/raft. By warping space just a little it can create a gravity field either positive or negative, a warp drive needs both, a positive gravity field in front of the ship and an antigravity field behind it. Also if it lands, it probably has reaction jets to make contact with the ground, because I think the crew would want to land it on its belly rather than its tail, especially if it has artificial gravity inside. The moment the ship comes to a rest on a planet's surface and shuts off the warp field, everything would fall the rear of the ship, I don't think the crew would like that.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:59 pm

Just to make this topic Traveller with TONS of speculation so don't write.

Prototype Warp Explorer Cost - 84.79Mcr
Hull - 100 tons; Distributed, Structure 2, Hull 2, Armor 0
Maneuver drive A - 2 g, Warp drive A - 2 PC/week, Fission plant B , Emergency PP
Fuel - 1 year duration
Standard bridge
Computer Model/1bis Software - Maneuver/0, Jump/1, Library
Basic civilian sensors
Staterooms - 4 double, 1 single. Crew - Officer, pilot. navigator, engineer, medic, 3 research
Laboratory - 3 research, medical bay
Carried craft - 20t launch w/ 10t Experimental Tracked Exploratory Vehicle
Cargo - 3.3 ton

Experimental Tracked Exploratory Vehicle
TL 9, Skill Drive(tracked), Agility 0, Speed 75/100. Range 500/750, Crew/passengers 1/3, Cargo 3ton, Open? No, Hull 10. Structure 10, Cost: 0.423Mcr
Equipment/modifications: Tracked, Off-road, Life support-long term, Airlock, Vacuum Environment Protection, Standard navigation, Communication - V. distant (uplink), Mini-galley, Fresher, General Purpose Lab (3 person), cargo - 3 tons.

I though about using HG reaction drive but, cutting quite a bit out, you have enough fuel for maybe 5 hours of flight.... no.

Didn't name the three research sections to their dedicated field. These are those pods attached to the central core. The two rings are the actual warp drive. I chose fission to make it closer to here and now as if the science is taken more seriously, funded and found to work. Warp drive research leads to gravitic technology. Some day they will make fusion work and pack more on the ship.

Ship can't land!!! That's why a launch is there and carrying the vehicle with a mobile lab for quick analysis.

Rules state you load up on life support and supplies per single occupancy each month (2000cr) so exploration would be limited to your supply line. Considering the ship has a duration of one year there should be a way to take extra supplies. I remembered Beltstrike. Life support per person per week is 1000cr and 1 ton cargo space carries 150 person-weeks. Problem solved. With 8 crew, a ton of cargo space lasts 18.75 weeks (5 months). Two more tons of cargo for samples!

I think I did the warp engine fuel calculation right in association with a fission drive. Double the power plant consumption for warp fuel means a year's duration for the warp. Right?

Dig out the near star maps and lets see what's out there other than flare stars and uber worlds!
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:45 am

It would be similar to 2300 in many respects, but in 2060 you'll have the Chinese, the Russians, Perhaps some Islamic Empire, as well as Americans and the EU doing exploration. And of course there will be private corporations like SpaceX In fact the UXS Enterprise might even be a SpaceX starship. Where it gets interesting is when all these nations and corporations compete for various worlds discovered and settled. A planet is a big thing anyway, I would expect multiple bases from different countries on the promising worlds. Robotics could be fairly advanced, AIs could be approaching human level competency at this point. I'd have a 100 diameter limit or something similar, more like 100 diameters time the cube root of the mass of the planet in Earth masses. The Warp drive needs to clear the planet before it can warp out, because empty space is easier to warp, you can't warp in an atmosphere other than to use the warp drive in grav vehicle mode.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:31 pm

The core rulebook seems to indicate the warp and jump engine act the same except for the means of movement and fuel consumption. It makes sense that strong gravity could disrupt a warp field. Communication and sensors could work as you are in real space and signals sent and received are understood and compensated by those expensive and powerful ship computers.

Robots and other tech advances would follow regular Traveller rules unless one desires to use the variant 2300 rules without studderwarp, a whole different technology. For me, the warp drive alternate is Traveller core so it's a Traveller universe rules. I mention the Near Star List because the ship is loosely based on theories in our real universe so have real stars. That's a real challenge. Depending on how far into the future the exploration and colonization has occurred would determine robotic advancement. I was thinking this is the period of the IXS Enterprise: The First Missions in which the warp engine leads to several related innovations and propelling the world to the beginnings of TL 9. Robotics do exist at TL 9 as both robot source books show so Enterprise might carry a prototype survey robot tucked in the ETEV.

Somehow I see SpaceX still letting the government do the expensive research then waiting to purchase the tech but that means IXS Enterprise will be the test bed for some time and way ahead on exploration. Even China has to wait until they can steal enough research or buy the tech from corporations then they may sell the tech to Russia to pay for all that gas. Europe will jump in for a partnership considering just the future in-system benefits and a stake in the future. Islamic Empires, not until the oil runs out or the Fusion Breakthrough ruins them and they behave. The US and its partners will have the advantage. (You blew it Putin!)

The next challenge, there have been NO intelligent signals. That means 1) Advanced signals we haven't created receivers for and their old signals have already passed us. 2) Signals haven't reached us yet and that would determine the age of the civilization based on distance. 3) Haven't invented electromagnetic communication and thus lower tech level. Even Vilan communications should have reached Earth at least centuries before we had even radio. Any radio using world still in existence should be received within at least the time we started listening. This could mean we are exploring a very wild and wholly frontier with possibly low tech aliens at best. Pray we don't repeat history or continue present policy!
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:58 am

Reynard wrote:The core rulebook seems to indicate the warp and jump engine act the same except for the means of movement and fuel consumption. It makes sense that strong gravity could disrupt a warp field. Communication and sensors could work as you are in real space and signals sent and received are understood and compensated by those expensive and powerful ship computers.

Robots and other tech advances would follow regular Traveller rules unless one desires to use the variant 2300 rules without studderwarp, a whole different technology. For me, the warp drive alternate is Traveller core so it's a Traveller universe rules. I mention the Near Star List because the ship is loosely based on theories in our real universe so have real stars. That's a real challenge. Depending on how far into the future the exploration and colonization has occurred would determine robotic advancement. I was thinking this is the period of the IXS Enterprise: The First Missions in which the warp engine leads to several related innovations and propelling the world to the beginnings of TL 9. Robotics do exist at TL 9 as both robot source books show so Enterprise might carry a prototype survey robot tucked in the ETEV.

Somehow I see SpaceX still letting the government do the expensive research then waiting to purchase the tech but that means IXS Enterprise will be the test bed for some time and way ahead on exploration. Even China has to wait until they can steal enough research or buy the tech from corporations then they may sell the tech to Russia to pay for all that gas. Europe will jump in for a partnership considering just the future in-system benefits and a stake in the future. Islamic Empires, not until the oil runs out or the Fusion Breakthrough ruins them and they behave. The US and its partners will have the advantage. (You blew it Putin!)

The next challenge, there have been NO intelligent signals. That means 1) Advanced signals we haven't created receivers for and their old signals have already passed us. 2) Signals haven't reached us yet and that would determine the age of the civilization based on distance. 3) Haven't invented electromagnetic communication and thus lower tech level. Even Vilan communications should have reached Earth at least centuries before we had even radio. Any radio using world still in existence should be received within at least the time we started listening. This could mean we are exploring a very wild and wholly frontier with possibly low tech aliens at best. Pray we don't repeat history or continue present policy!
Oh you mean like the movie Avatar? Problem is in a realistic universe advanced aliens would be so advanced that it would be no contest. Another possibility is advanced aliens are there but invisible, perhaps they arranged to have humanity "Discover" warp drive just to see what would happen, perhaps the inventor was actually an alien or a robot. The most interesting contests would be between humans, perhaps with intelligent robots (cylons). We could create our own "alien" empires. Another scenario involves discovering ancient alien ruins, or perhaps they aren't ruins at all, perhaps they were planted their by the ancient alien overlords as part of a test they wish to subject humanity to. The Aliens could even "Terraform" some worlds with apparently alien life, the forms are unearthlike and appear totally alien except they share the same biochemistry as humans, so they could eat humans and humans could eat them, the plant life is more similar to Earth plants and also edible. The casual adventurer might not wonder about those, but a dedicated scientist would. The aliens would arrange a series of challenges for the humans, putting all sorts of obstacles in their path. the aliens themselves are inscrutable, they can shapechange their bodies, can appear human if they wish or as something else.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:30 am

Tom, we're creating a special career path just for you, the Conspiracist!
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:07 am

Reynard wrote:Tom, we're creating a special career path just for you, the Conspiracist!
Conspiracies make for great adventures.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Hopeless » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:02 am

Would that include the possibility we colonised Earth after the previous homeworld suffered a catalcysmic event (for example Mars)?

I wonder how those scientists would react if they find definite signs of life as in an ancient space base only to discover it was manned and maybe even built by a race thats otherwise indistinguishable with humanity?

Would they immediately assume its just a coincedence and begin research to confirm that hypothesis in case some of these extraterrestrials are walking unnoticed on Earth instead of thinking maybe they are us and those who through some throwback genetics are labelled "alien" when they're not?

Okay maybe I'm going too far there! :roll:

Okay so why not check out the rest of this solar system first before trying for the next star system?
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:50 am

Hopeless wrote:Would that include the possibility we colonised Earth after the previous homeworld suffered a catalcysmic event (for example Mars)?

I wonder how those scientists would react if they find definite signs of life as in an ancient space base only to discover it was manned and maybe even built by a race thats otherwise indistinguishable with humanity?

Would they immediately assume its just a coincedence and begin research to confirm that hypothesis in case some of these extraterrestrials are walking unnoticed on Earth instead of thinking maybe they are us and those who through some throwback genetics are labelled "alien" when they're not?

Okay maybe I'm going too far there! :roll:

Okay so why not check out the rest of this solar system first before trying for the next star system?
That would be kind of like having a murder mystery where the suspect comes out at the beginning and says, "I did it!" I'd rather have the presence of aliens be not so obvious.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:52 am

"Okay so why not check out the rest of this solar system first before trying for the next star system?"

A Traveller Universe campaign I created does just that. Discovering tv and radio signals from Epsilon eridani spurs us to research space technologies and explore/exploit our solar system while we wait to see if there's a return to our attempts at contact. In the meantime, we are also doing secretive, accelerated R&D in Jump science but the solar system will be well on its way in intra-system traffic, trade and habitation before then.

The concept of this thread is we develop interstellar technology before having an efficient sublight system. It's the offshoot of the warp technology that creates a parallel research track to the gravitic maneuver drive (and grav plate and inertial compensators). There is probably an epiphany that the solar system is now an economical reality and plans to develop spaceships are underway but the Enterprise is the test for all the systems and goes first. Great PR to spur investment at home.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Hopeless » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:19 pm

I was imagining watching a quick tour of the solar system perhaps a version of Star Tours using Star Wars as a guide... except at the end you learn this is recorded footage from a ship that actually made that trip...
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:36 pm

Reynard wrote:"Okay so why not check out the rest of this solar system first before trying for the next star system?"
First stop is Titan, no more relying on OPEC, Titan has lots of natural gas and other petrochemicals in deep freeze.
Reynard wrote:A Traveller Universe campaign I created does just that. Discovering tv and radio signals from Epsilon eridani spurs us to research space technologies and explore/exploit our solar system while we wait to see if there's a return to our attempts at contact. In the meantime, we are also doing secretive, accelerated R&D in Jump science but the solar system will be well on its way in intra-system traffic, trade and habitation before then.

The concept of this thread is we develop interstellar technology before having an efficient sublight system. It's the offshoot of the warp technology that creates a parallel research track to the gravitic maneuver drive (and grav plate and inertial compensators). There is probably an epiphany that the solar system is now an economical reality and plans to develop spaceships are underway but the Enterprise is the test for all the systems and goes first. Great PR to spur investment at home.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:53 pm

OPEC? Oh yeah, they make motor oil.

I can see a LOT of problems if we get out in to our own solar backyard if gas giants are as accessible as in Traveller. Energy and mineral corporations will fight against the space program unless they have a stranglehold on the vast resources. Hydrogen fuel alone scooped 'free' will change history. I just hope we don't see Outland in this future.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby sideranautae » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:32 pm

Tom Kalbfus wrote: First stop is Titan, no more relying on OPEC, Titan has lots of natural gas and other petrochemicals in deep freeze.
We actually get MOST of our (USA) oil from Canada. We get our natural gas from ourselves. The cost to mine it on Titan and ship back to Earth would make it FAR more expensive than the oil & gas we get from North America... :shock:
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby AndrewW » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:55 pm

sideranautae wrote:We actually get MOST of our (USA) oil from Canada. We get our natural gas from ourselves. The cost to mine it on Titan and ship back to Earth would make it FAR more expensive than the oil & gas we get from North America... :shock:
Till it runs out.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby sideranautae » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:03 pm

AndrewW wrote:
sideranautae wrote:We actually get MOST of our (USA) oil from Canada. We get our natural gas from ourselves. The cost to mine it on Titan and ship back to Earth would make it FAR more expensive than the oil & gas we get from North America... :shock:
Till it runs out.
Sure. A couple, or more centuries from now. But long before then we can switch to something basically inexhaustible for energy like thorium reactors. India already took the designs from the US and is building. It STILL means that getting petrol from outer-space is more expensive that Earth located energy sources. For the next several million years anyway.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Reynard » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:02 pm

Essentially the usefulness won't be evident until we have something to fuel. Notice the ship design had a fission power source. No fusion just yet but coming. We do have very rare experimental hydrogen fuel vehicles. What will initially occur while the Enterprise gallivants the galaxy is in system exploration and research. Colonies on the moon, Mars and the belt will be for discovery rather than exploitation (not a bad word here). The maneuver drive will be as important, if not more, to economically populating and utilizing our home. In time, costs will drop as infrastructure is established and super freighters and tankers carry materials much easier to access than on Earth. Water shortages? Ice comets and asteroids. I'm sure the economic upheaval will readjust.

Also remember we won't need to keep destroying the landscape and dump or release poisons getting them. Gives us a chance to heal the damage.

All this while the Enterprise looks for strange new worlds, lifeforms and maybe civilizations.
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:59 pm

sideranautae wrote:
Tom Kalbfus wrote: First stop is Titan, no more relying on OPEC, Titan has lots of natural gas and other petrochemicals in deep freeze.
We actually get MOST of our (USA) oil from Canada. We get our natural gas from ourselves. The cost to mine it on Titan and ship back to Earth would make it FAR more expensive than the oil & gas we get from North America... :shock:
But with antigravity who knows? Presumably it would make travel in space a lot cheaper. Also the bulk of materials would be climbing out of Titan's gravity, which is less that Earth's
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Re: FTL starship today

Postby Tom Kalbfus » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:05 pm

Reynard wrote:Essentially the usefulness won't be evident until we have something to fuel. Notice the ship design had a fission power source. No fusion just yet but coming. We do have very rare experimental hydrogen fuel vehicles. What will initially occur while the Enterprise gallivants the galaxy is in system exploration and research. Colonies on the moon, Mars and the belt will be for discovery rather than exploitation (not a bad word here). The maneuver drive will be as important, if not more, to economically populating and utilizing our home. In time, costs will drop as infrastructure is established and super freighters and tankers carry materials much easier to access than on Earth. Water shortages? Ice comets and asteroids. I'm sure the economic upheaval will readjust.

Also remember we won't need to keep destroying the landscape and dump or release poisons getting them. Gives us a chance to heal the damage.

All this while the Enterprise looks for strange new worlds, lifeforms and maybe civilizations.
What about private companies buying the starships and building tankers to bring the methane from Titan to Earth, it could then hover above the shipping terminals, using warp engines, as it off loads tanks o liquefied natural gas. A lot depends on how expensive or how cheap it is, such as the "family warp ship". Star Trek is all about government operated starships with weapons, you don't get to see much of the commercial side of things or private ownership of starships.

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