Additional attack actions?

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Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:28 pm

Greetings,
One of my players asked why there seems to be nothing between "I fire one shot" and "I empty my clip in that general direction, hopefully producing up to two attacks".

I had no immediate response, apart from "well, that's the rules" but it got me thinking.

Would it be fair to allow one additional attack per round but in return place a -2DM on everything the character does that round? A character can thus fire two single shots (2d6-2 + 2d6-2, I think they'd have to be rolled separately and not according to the full-auto rules), two bursts, or add +2d6 to a full-auto attack (turning auto 4 into auto 6, auto 6 into auto 8 and so on, each pair would then suffer -2dm).

I'm also thinking this needs to either be capped at short range, or possibly suffer doubled ranged penalties. Or... The combination of -2 to hit and range mods might make it difficult enough without needing extra rules... ? The reasoning here is that firing at close range involves at least a bit of "point and shoot" whereas long range firing requires more precise aiming.

Other random ideas related to this involves "double-tapping", firing two shots to increase hit-chance: +1DM to hit; and using burst-fire to increase hit chance (+1DM per auto 2) as opposed to narrow burst (standard rules). An auto 4 weapon could thus gain +2 DM to hit or deal +4 damage while bursting.

Thoughts, ideas?
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:51 pm

Trace the path of bullets. Heck. Powergamers will do the tracing for you. If a bullet misses a target, see if it hits another in that area.

Is the player role-playing for one thing.
Is the character skilled at all with just emptying clips at a general direction.
Is this in-character for them to do so.
Is the player more interested in winning Traveller.
Does the player just like to shoot stuff.
And how does the player behave/act when a characteristic for their PC goes to 0.

Normally, just have the player do a gun combat roll.
Roll of 2, no effect, no more bullets. Lots of return fire.
Roll of 12, everyone's dead, still some bullets left, no return fire.

Use the effect for more narration about the shooting action.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby CosmicGamer » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:39 am

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Greetings,
One of my players asked why there seems to be nothing between "I fire one shot" and "I empty my clip in that general direction, hopefully producing up to two attacks".
Single shot, burst, full auto. For me, that's plenty of granularity for a RPG.
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Would it be fair to allow one additional attack per round but in return place a -2DM on everything the character does that round? A character can thus fire two single shots (2d6-2 + 2d6-2, I think they'd have to be rolled separately and not according to the full-auto rules)
This seams more like what a unskilled person might do. Fire off wild shots shots in a panic instead of taking time to hit your target. -3DM unskilled, -2DM panic attack even on boxcars without some additional positive DM you would miss. Sounds reasonable for the unskilled character panicking but I doubt many players would opt to do such.
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:Other random ideas related to this involves "double-tapping", firing two shots to increase hit-chance:
This doesn't sit right with me. I can see there is more bullets in the air but I'd think shooting twice as fast makes each individual shot less accurate than taking the normal amount of time. Seams more like what a panicky person does and not someone trying to be accurate.
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:using burst-fire to increase hit chance (+1DM per auto 2) as opposed to narrow burst (standard rules)
I guess there is two perspectives
1) +DM to damage as more lead in the air means possibly multiple hits.
2) +DM to hit as more lead in the air means you might get lucky - this ALSO increases damage.

I'm more for the first. Ability to hit does not go up but there is a chance that more bullets will hit and thus more damage. Not thrilled with how multiple hits and damage is done but I can live with it. Also can provide other alternatives - see below

For the second, the concept seams to be more about someone unskilled spray and pray swinging the weapon around hoping your normal inaccuracy is improved by additional bullets flying about.

Some options
- Much more time consuming and I'm not for slowing down the action but one could roll for each of the bullets. Perhaps -1 or -2 DM to hit on every additional roll.
- Instead of a flat +DM to damage, effect is multiplied by the extra bullets
- Additional hits are based on effect. For every 2 points of effect another bullet hits.

Whatever tweaks you might make, you should run it through some simulated battles with various armor and weapons. And remember, if you increase the chance to hit and do damage this goes for the opponent hitting the players characters too.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Easterner » Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:53 am

IMTU

Firing gun is a minor action. Can be combined with 1-3 Aim actions.

Firing gun without aiming is a Snapshot.

Firing multiple shots in a Snapshot (Full clip to a max of 6) is -2 to hit but 1 extra hit for each pip over the to-hit number.

Magazine dump: Empties weapon. All shots miss. All targets must go prone or hide behind cover. All that don't are hit on 8+ (Auto roll on each). Most useful with MG's and in tight corridors.

All Doubles do 2x damage i.e 2x4's, 2x5's, 2x6's. (if they hit)
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:19 pm

Easterner, that's perfect! Now I've got it!

What if we look upon the standard major attack action as two minor actions joined together, aim and shoot?

A standard attack does involve a bit of aiming after all, so why not break it apart? Shoot as a minor action, at -1DM, commonly combined with aim to form a major action. I don't even have to change the rules (much), tweak the mechanics or re-write anything, if a good enough shooter wants to, he or she can attempt up to three quick snapshots in a round, or one normal attack (plus player's choice of minor action). Brilliant!

As for my burst-fire idea in another thread, I think I'm gonna tweak carefully and increase the effect bonus against unarmored opponents, but if the target wears any kind of armor the regular rules are used, otherwise I'm gonna mess up the whole combat and armor system...
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Easterner » Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:11 pm

The Liftoff combat has a number of good ideas. one is that all aimers shoot at end of combat after snapshots are completed. For those less lethally inclined they have only boxcars do double damage (IIRC you double the dice not the result).
What if we look upon the standard major attack action as two minor actions joined together, aim and shoot?
That is basically it. Aim and shoot are minor actions and two minors can be done in same round. It's the aiming, breathing and not getting tunnel vision in a battle that is difficult and not the trigger pull. I recall a soldier in Viet Nam getting interviewed at the Embassy who talked while firing his M2 carbine over the wall at the occupied Embassy unaimed and w/o looking at the same time.

Unaimed gun shots, mag dumps and shooting high is standard in combat, as is ducking under fire. Coolly aiming and shooting picked targets is not. That's why those that do (A. Murphy, A. York) were awarded Medals of Honor.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby mr31337 » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:44 pm

If you wish to stick to the MRB then technically you can "go faster" [MRB pp50]...

Since two minor actions are the equivalent of one significant action it's obviously a faster time frame; hence characters may go faster and attack once per minor action and suffer a -1DM, exactly as the rules indicate. Let's call it a snapshot. I considered recoil & heft to be cumulative.

This is balanced, since an aiming action is a minor action, so add one aiming action to a snapshot and you have an attack that takes two minor actions (1 significant action) and has a DM of +0....exactly the same as a normal attack. Simple.

We've just given this a good work out in my own campaign and it worked really well. Combat felt more alive, plausible and a lot more exciting & edgy, and more options for players too. Highly recommended.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby CosmicGamer » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:30 pm

I like to use the rules as written as much as possible so I like your reasoning Mr3.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:03 pm

mr31337 wrote:If you wish to stick to the MRB then technically you can "go faster" [MRB pp50]...

Since two minor actions are the equivalent of one significant action it's obviously a faster time frame; hence characters may go faster and attack once per minor action and suffer a -1DM, exactly as the rules indicate. Let's call it a snapshot. I considered recoil & heft to be cumulative.

This is balanced, since an aiming action is a minor action, so add one aiming action to a snapshot and you have an attack that takes two minor actions (1 significant action) and has a DM of +0....exactly the same as a normal attack. Simple.

We've just given this a good work out in my own campaign and it worked really well. Combat felt more alive, plausible and a lot more exciting & edgy, and more options for players too. Highly recommended.
So, broadly speaking, more or less the same as mentioned above, but better explained to be more in line with official rules?

I like it! Looking forward to giving it a try next time!
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby CosmicGamer » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:39 pm

Just thinking here - which is often a dangerous thing

Opening up for some discussion
With the snapshot only taking a single round would you...
- allow 3 snapshots in one round?
- make the character announce all actions before resolving them (so they can't make a snap shot and decide what else the character is doing based on the results)
- possibly limit the player to only being able to shoot at one target in a round so that they are not snapin off shots in all directions, in front, behind, up on the rooftop... all with just a -1 penalty.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby CosmicGamer » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:57 pm

Ok here I go again thinking

How about the concept of trying to get off a quick snapshot before an opponent can so something. Not a delay, you don't get to know what the opponent is trying to do. Perhaps there is a penalty for hitting since you are rushing your shot but you get to bump your initiative - maybe a -1DM per point of initiative?

Maybe instead of just tying this to shooting it should be more versatile though. Someone might want to dive for cover or whatever else. Hmm, thinking on the fly now - even more dangerous as I've not thought things through. Maybe trading a minor action for a bump in initiative?

Part of the problem is I always had a problem with the way initiative works. A random dice roll producing 2-12 results so that luck is a bigger factor than skill (no effect on initiative) or dex which could be from -2 to 2.

Dang, still thinking and sorry to take things off track but I want to get the idea down before I forget.

Initiative = 1d6+Dex (not Dex DM)
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:42 pm

Well, I'm gonna have to think all of these through, but here are some spontaneous comments:
CosmicGamer wrote:Just thinking here - which is often a dangerous thing

Opening up for some discussion
With the snapshot only taking a single round would you...
- allow 3 snapshots in one round?
Potentially, yes. Assuming the player/character doesn't want to move, aim, reload or do anything at all except shoot.
- make the character announce all actions before resolving them (so they can't make a snap shot and decide what else the character is doing based on the results)
Um... Sure, why not? Would make the game faster and smoother even with regular rules, I'd think?

I have this idea to try to - as far as possible, not stop time and play step-by-step in combat, but rather do it realtime or slow-motion, and requiring each player to announce everything they wish to do (quickly) would be an important step for that. (I'm not sure it'd work, but it feels worth a try)
- possibly limit the player to only being able to shoot at one target in a round so that they are not snapin off shots in all directions, in front, behind, up on the rooftop... all with just a -1 penalty.
Some kind of limit might be needed, yes. All attacks on one target is one idea, minor action to change target could work, or something along the lines of "all targets must be within X meters of each other" where X is... something between 1 and 5, since full auto is capped at 6, and I don't wanna remove that completely as a way to attack.

Spontaneouslyv I'd wanna say changing targets is a minor action (or part of the aiming mechanism/action, or something like that)
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:53 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:Ok here I go again thinking

How about the concept of trying to get off a quick snapshot before an opponent can so something. Not a delay, you don't get to know what the opponent is trying to do. Perhaps there is a penalty for hitting since you are rushing your shot but you get to bump your initiative - maybe a -1DM per point of initiative?

Maybe instead of just tying this to shooting it should be more versatile though. Someone might want to dive for cover or whatever else. Hmm, thinking on the fly now - even more dangerous as I've not thought things through. Maybe trading a minor action for a bump in initiative?

Part of the problem is I always had a problem with the way initiative works. A random dice roll producing 2-12 results so that luck is a bigger factor than skill (no effect on initiative) or dex which could be from -2 to 2.

Dang, still thinking and sorry to take things off track but I want to get the idea down before I forget.

Initiative = 1d6+Dex (not Dex DM)
Thinking is dangerous!

This particular line of thinking makes me slide into my unfinished scetches of duelling rules... Based upon duels in Cowboys vs Xenomorps... Where you (for the first round only) add your gun combat and dex bonus to the initiative roll. To expand upon this, tactics could possibly be included too, and perhaps the players could be given a choice between "add your skill level/bonus" or "make a gun combat roll and a dex roll, add their effects to the initiative" giving a choice between a guaranteed bonus or the possibility of a larger bonus with a risk or total failure.

While in this duelling mode, perhaps the gunfight could somehow be resolved as an opposed check, where initiative (based on the above) is added to a gun combat check, and the winner either shoots first, or is the only one getting an attack off, or gets to use every point (s)he wins by to increase aim, feint and dodge, or... simply wins the duel by some kind of abstract rule.... I don't know, think I'm gonna go to sleep now and revisit this tomorrow... :-)
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Easterner » Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:09 am

In the new LIFTOFF rules aimed actions are resolved after all unaimed shots. So that's how snapshots are resolved.

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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby mr31337 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:48 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:Just thinking here - which is often a dangerous thing

Opening up for some discussion
With the snapshot only taking a single round would you...
- allow 3 snapshots in one round?
- make the character announce all actions before resolving them (so they can't make a snap shot and decide what else the character is doing based on the results)
- possibly limit the player to only being able to shoot at one target in a round so that they are not snapin off shots in all directions, in front, behind, up on the rooftop... all with just a -1 penalty.
Exactly, up to 3 snapshots per round.

The RAW do not require a character to declare each action before they are resolved.

Regarding shooting in different directions & at different targets: There is no such limitation in the MRB on attacks, the penalty according to the MRB is a -1DM, anything else is just a house rule.

In my own experience it's actually pretty straightforward to acquire a new target and make a quick 'attack' in about two seconds. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of tactical shooting on YouTube to support this.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby CosmicGamer » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:04 pm

mr31337 wrote:In my own experience it's actually pretty straightforward to acquire a new target and make a quick 'attack' in about two seconds. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of tactical shooting on YouTube to support this.
Problem is the rest of the mechanics are far from realistic so sometimes you need one thing to balance another.

For example, my pet peeve regarding initiative. Is the "fastest" person really taking all three of their minor actions before any other person in the whole battle does anything at all? Is everyone else just sitting around doing nothing while a person gets their 6 seconds of action?

"Even though all the bad guys have guns trained on me, I have initiative. I'll use all my actions sprinting across the open ground from my current cover to a new position of cover before any of them can get off a single shot." Is that on you tube? Please, Mr3, do not take this as criticizing you. I'm just pointing out that it's hard for rules to portray realism and some attempts to add it can break other things. These rules represent everything from a tactical expert on youtube to a fool who never used a gun before. I've spent time thinking about a set of skill based abilities that took effect as one gained levels. Level 2, you can quick draw, level 3 you can shoot with a weapon in each hand... Another thought is having a list of possible special abilities and allowing characters to choose one for each level. Another thought is you can't aim for more rounds than skill level +1 - you just don't have the knowledge to take advantage of all the different things that might go into the more extreme aiming, like adjusting for wind speed, bullet drop, type of atmosphere, breathing right, leading your target and so on. This is where fancy tech can help - can give the novice some additional aiming abilities they might not normally have because it is calculating wind speed and distance and so on and helping them aim.

Just thoughts. The mind is a dangerous thing. Nothing completely thought through or tested.

Back to the topic.

With 3 shots on 3 targets possible, I'm even more against an initiative where luck has a huge factor in deciding events. Flip things - one single bad guy gets off a shot at three players before they can do anything at all. The 2d6 initiative could easily be the decider allowing one person to mow through the opposition if you allow attacks on three people in one round.

The other thing initiative does is allow people to see what the people before them did. You don't get multiple people attacking the guy with the dangerous gun filling him with lead. Once the first people drop the big baddie during a round, the rest can spend the same round mopping up the remaining opponents as if the first opponents didn't even exist.

"Ok, John and Joe took out the opponents with ranged weapons? I'll run across the open ground and knife the guy over there that is unarmed." If we want to get realistic, things would happen more or less simultaneously and someone probably wouldn't be running across the open ground while there is gunfire - might even get hit by friendly fire.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby sideranautae » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:17 pm

CosmicGamer wrote: Once the first people drop the big baddie during a round, the rest can spend the same round mopping up the remaining opponents as if the first opponents didn't even exist.

"Ok, John and Joe took out the opponents with ranged weapons? I'll run across the open ground and knife the guy over there that is unarmed." If we want to get realistic, things would happen more or less simultaneously and someone probably wouldn't be running across the open ground while there is gunfire - might even get hit by friendly fire.
Tough to do but, I try to get stuff as simultaneous as possible. EACH participant doesn't get their own slice of time. It is only one round where everyone gets to act.
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:22 pm

mr31337 wrote: Regarding shooting in different directions & at different targets: There is no such limitation in the MRB on attacks, the penalty according to the MRB is a -1DM, anything else is just a house rule.
On page 62 or the rulebook, under Special Considerations - Automatic Weapons it states that each target in a full-auto attack must be within 6 meters of each others, that's what I've been referring to.



Good points about the dangers of tripleshots before anyone gets to act, everyone. Dangers like this is why I initially considered a more fierce penalty, such as -2DM. There are oher solutions, too. If we accept that snapshots are at -1 to hit, dodging has a greater chance to make the shot miss completely. It would take a skilled shooter to have any luck at all with multi-snapshots. We could allow snapshots only up to close range (max 12 m) and/or decide that all targets must be within 1 meter of each other (or 2, or whatever feels appropriate). We could also borrow from missile-defense, and allow any number of shots, but increase the difficulty with say -1 or -2 per shot, and after one miss you'd get no more shots.

Triple snapshots also assume that the character has clear line of sight to three different opponents, but is also in a defendable enough position not to require a move action to reposition, or reload, or aim at a distant foe, or...

In one way, the extra lethality we're introducing isn't neccesarily a bad thing.
Snapfiring is only going to be used (successfully) by skilled fighters. The ones that are going to suffer the most are unarmored, untrained opponents, the kind of combatants that should suffer greatly in a firefight with competent foes.

There's also a possibility to boost dodging. Change it to a dex roll and apply effect as a negative modifier for example, or somehow allow gun combat to apply in some way...
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby mr31337 » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:40 pm

You can, of course, make up any rules you wish about 'snapshots', however, none of what you propose is in the RAW, so they'd just be house rules. :wink:
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Re: Additional attack actions?

Postby Matt Wilson » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:46 pm

What if each snapshot ticked your initiative down the way dodging does? Your initiative is 7, you take a snapshot, and then you can take another snapshot at 5. If you have to dodge in between it bumps you down even more.

If you want to shoot at multiple targets, depending on how chaotic the firefight is, the GM could declare "fog of war" and make you roll to acquire a new target. Difficulty might not be too bad, but it could cost you an action penalty. If you're at "shady deal gone bad" range like in the same room, you probably wouldn't need a roll, but at outdoor ranges, things can get confusing really fast.

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