Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Wil Mireu » Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:20 pm

atpollard wrote:Too Expensive: Yes, I agree.
The price appears to have dropped to about $1 now.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby enderra » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:39 pm

atpollard wrote:(...) all Chargen is forbidden under the Traveller Logo License ... so the project died at inception.
Are you sure you read and understood the license? It's pretty specific about what is not allowed:

"11. Gaming books produced under this agreement may not detail the process of generating and assigning scores to Characteristics. In addition, the terms used for Characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, Endurance, Intelligence, Education and Social Standing) may not be changed. They may be abbreviated to Str, Dex, End, Int, Edu, and Soc respectively. Readers may be referred to the Traveller (TM) Main Rulebook in order to generate and assign scores to Characteristics."

Emphasis mine. While I agree that this probably disallows at least some form of "replacement rules" such as "roll 1d6 for SOC instead of the normal rules", character generation is far more than just "generating and assigning scores to characteristics". Indeed the ban, above, seems to only prevent you from re-stating what's described in one paragraph of page 6 of the MgT rules book.

Minor alien races (your example) should be no problem, if you stick to the "weak" and "notable" characteristic traits and don't detail them instead of inventing alternate character generation rules, and refer to the MgT rules book for those traits. You can presumably invent non-characteristic-generating rules until your fingers start bleeding from all the typing.

Also note that this is only in the Logo license. If you use the OGL/SRD without the logo, it is my understanding that you can add and modify the system with any of your own material that you feel like.
atpollard wrote:Sure, I could pursue a separate license agreement from Mongoose and FFE or I could pitch the idea for publication through Mongoose ...
The Logo license only requires you to pursue a separate license if you want to create "Foreign translations, novels, miniatures, computer games and other media" (Par. 2). Par. 1 specifically states that, if in doubt about the Logo license regarding what you want to do, you are supposed to contact Matt to discuss your project.

But anyway, that's all just my opinion. Check with your lawyer if you want a competent evaluation.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby atpollard » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:18 pm

enderra wrote:
atpollard wrote:(...) all Chargen is forbidden under the Traveller Logo License ... so the project died at inception.
Are you sure you read and understood the license? It's pretty specific about what is not allowed:

[snip good advice]

But anyway, that's all just my opinion. Check with your lawyer if you want a competent evaluation.
You are probably correct, however ... well, I guess that I am a coward :) ... because words like "probably" and "check with your lawyer" tend to push the Risk vs Reward balance deep into the "PASS" category for me.

One lawsuit, even if you ultimately prevail, can ruin your whole day/week/month/year. ;)
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby enderra » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:51 am

atpollard wrote:You are probably correct, however ... well, I guess that I am a coward :) ... because words like "probably" and "check with your lawyer" tend to push the Risk vs Reward balance deep into the "PASS" category for me.

One lawsuit, even if you ultimately prevail, can ruin your whole day/week/month/year. ;)
Oh, I completely understand. One just needs to be careful when voicing an opinion on legal matters so as to not confuse people - and in fact I believe it's illegal in most jurisdictions unless you are a licensed lawyer. So I always go out of my way to make sure people know I am just a random geek. IANAL ftw.

And there's nothing wrong with your risk analysis either, of course.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby captainjack23 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:15 pm

Universal Machine wrote:The 2d6 SF SRD is separate from but related to the Traveller SRD. The 2d6 SF SRD can be used with the Traveller SRD. Posts here advertising the 2d6 SF SRD keep getting deleted as the 2d6 SF SRD is viewed as competition.

All of our products can be used with the Traveller SRD and/or the TMB/Spica Publishing's/other TPPs books: basic Character Generation (characteristic scores/modifiers), Physical Appearance (height/weight/eye/hair/skin colour), Family Background (parents/relatives/upbringing/family events). Sort out your background skills (coming soon from Universal Machine!), choose a career (also coming soon from Universal Machine!) and away you go.

So.....these are rules to generate characters that are compatable with the Traveller SRD, but not the Traveller Logo Licence ? because to be compatable with Traveller (the logo licence) one cannot include character generation ? How can somthing be separate but related ? Seems...a bit tenuous, but that may be my extreme lack of knowlege of IP law...(if it even is part of IP law).

Are there any products on the market that it could be used with that are pure Traveller SRD that arent effected by the Logo licence ? Otgherwise, is this product a systemless chargen system that is coincedentally compatable with the traveller SRD ?

Not snarking or trolling, just trying to wrap my head around this, as I, like many others, have vague pie in the sky plands to do SRD traveller stuff - and this seem relevant to it.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:45 pm

It's fairly simple. The Open Game Licence (OGL) gives you the right to use material designated as Open Game Content (OGC) to create your own derivative works in accordance with the terms of the licence - but it explicitly prohibits you from claiming compatibility with existing game systems. The Traveller Logo License grants you additional rights to indicate compatibility with the Traveller rule system, but also places some additional restrictions on how you can use the material provided by Mongoose / FFE. And if you want to produce material compatible with the OTU, there are further restrictions in the Forneven Free Sector Logo Licence.

What does this mean in practical terms? It means that you can take the Open Game Content released in the System Reference Document and rework it any way you like - but you can't call it Traveller. You still have to comply with the terms of the Open Game Licence though (especially Section 15) and you can't use any material from products that is designated as Product Identity.

If you want to produce material and indicate that it is compatible with the Traveller game system, you ALSO need to comply with the Traveller Logo Licence. There's a trade-off here - on the one hand you accept some additional restrictions on what you can do with the OGC, but on the other hand you gain limited access to the Traveller branding (which vastly increases the visibility of your product and let's gamers know what they can do with it). Plus, you get the additional satisfaction of contributing to a community effort to improve and build on the legacy of Traveller....
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:46 pm

Universal Machine wrote: Posts here advertising the 2d6 SF SRD keep getting deleted as the 2d6 SF SRD is viewed as competition.
Actually, they keep getting deleted because you never asked us if you could make commercial posts here and seem to be treating these forums as your own stomping ground...
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Wil Mireu » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:57 pm

captainjack23 wrote: Are there any products on the market that it could be used with that are pure Traveller SRD that arent effected by the Logo licence ? Otgherwise, is this product a systemless chargen system that is coincedentally compatable with the traveller SRD ?
This: http://www.sceaptunegames.co.uk/shop/hyperlite.htm
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Wil Mireu » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:01 pm

Prime_Evil wrote:What does this mean in practical terms? It means that you can take the Open Game Content released in the System Reference Document and rework it any way you like - but you can't call it Traveller. You still have to comply with the terms of the Open Game Licence though (especially Section 15) and you can't use any material from products that is designated as Product Identity.
As far as I can see, UMP are not calling their material "Traveller".
If you want to produce material and indicate that it is compatible with the Traveller game system, you ALSO need to comply with the Traveller Logo Licence.
They can't say it's "compatible with Traveller" without the TLL, but I don't think they need the TLL to be able to say that it's "compatible with the 2d6 SF OGL" - it's the same as when people previously said "compatible with the world's most popular fantasy RPG" or compatible with the "d20 OGL System" without requiring the d20 license to be able to do so.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby dragoner » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:11 pm

msprange wrote:
Universal Machine wrote: Posts here advertising the 2d6 SF SRD keep getting deleted as the 2d6 SF SRD is viewed as competition.
Actually, they keep getting deleted because you never asked us if you could make commercial posts here and seem to be treating these forums as your own stomping ground...
Nobody would blame you for deleting the entire thread. :wink:
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Wil Mireu » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:38 pm

dragoner wrote:Nobody would blame you for deleting the entire thread. :wink:
Lock it if you must, but please don't delete it. There's been some useful discussion here.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby captainjack23 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:15 am

Wil Mireu wrote:
captainjack23 wrote: Are there any products on the market that it could be used with that are pure Traveller SRD that arent effected by the Logo licence ? Otgherwise, is this product a systemless chargen system that is coincedentally compatable with the traveller SRD ?
This: http://www.sceaptunegames.co.uk/shop/hyperlite.htm

Huh. Actually, i just redownloaded Hyperlite, and just checked, it references the traveller Open system doc as well as the SF 2d6 thingie.


- I thought it originally had a "compatable" logo, this may be a new version ?
edit: checked my older archived copy of Hyperlite, and it doesnt have a traveller compatable logo .
That said, is this the same bunch of writers/company as the current stuff ? Or has some consensus about renaming the traveller OGL the 2D6 SF OGL been reached that I missed ? It almost looks like the new stuff is referencing a different SRD. Confusing.

Code: Select all

This product is stand-alone: derived from the familiar Traveller™ OGL SRD, Hyperlite:The Sirius Treaty has many redesigned elements and contains everything you need to take your SF Roleplaying Game in a new direction: the universe of the Sirius Treaty.
 
See us on Facebook and on our website.
 
The Traveller™ Core Rulebook is available from Mongoose Publishing.
Okay, well, whatever; reading the OGL in that product, it sounds to me like even that specifies you can't sell it as compatable with traveller, but the document cleary discusses the use of traveller.....so, all it seems to be doing is complying with the logo licence but not using the logo or compatability. Clearly too complex for my tiny brain. The opprortunity to buy an RPG a page at a time is the main thing keeping me from looking at it.

That and if they are trying to lay the groundwork for a retroclone or a far from abandoned gameline, one still in publication, that's somthing I dont want to support.

But, again, whatever. If they call me up to ask for my advice, I'll tell them that, and Im sure it'll be worth what they pay for it.. ;)
Last edited by captainjack23 on Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby captainjack23 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:22 am

Prime_Evil wrote:It's fairly simple. <actually very clear discussion of the topic snipped>....

Okay, that makes sense.

So, anything released under the OGL is open and can be used, this includes D&D, traveller, and any of the other stuff. However, using Just the OGL means you can't say it works with, is compatble with, or is designed for the closed ruleset, correct ?

The example of Hyperlite seems to imply compatability pretty strongly, and discusses it at length (p 11) and references the core books as would be required, but doesnt use the logo (or repro the logo licence). The heck ?

So it seems that calling it the 2d6 SF OGL is a way to avoid invoking Traveller even by name ?
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:32 am

captainjack23 wrote:So, anything released under the OGL is open and can be used, this includes D&D, traveller, and any of the other stuff. However, using Just the OGL means you can't say it works with, is compatible with, or is designed for the closed ruleset, correct ?
That's essentially correct. If you read section 7 of the OGL carefully, it spells it all out:
Open Game Licence wrote:7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
It's a reasonable requirement intended to prevent shoddy publishers from ripping off the IP of other companies and / or devaluing their trademarked brand.
captainjack23 wrote:The example of Hyperlite seems to imply compatibility pretty strongly, and discusses it at length (p 11) and references the core books as would be required, but doesn't use the logo (or repro the logo license). The heck ?
In the case of Hyperlite, the authors state that although the game uses Open Game Content derived from the Traveller SRD it is explicitly NOT compatible with Mongoose Traveller because the system has been modified to meet the needs of the game. Also, there's a meaningful difference between stating that a setting is 'based on the Open Gaming Licensed (OGL) Roleplaying Game system specifically created to support science fiction in the 1970’s' and stating that the setting is fully compatible with the Traveller game system from Mongoose Publishing. The authors do use the trademarked term Traveller, but are careful to indicate that the trademark is owned by Far Future Enterprises and state that they do not challenge their ownership of this trademark. Also, this is done in the context of the title of the System Reference Document which is probably OK.

My main issue with Hyperlite is that despite building the system on the Traveller SRD, the only thing that they contribute back to the community is the 'default' Open Game Content specified in Section 1d of the OGL.
captainjack23 wrote:So it seems that calling it the 2d6 SF OGL is a way to avoid invoking Traveller even by name ?
Yes...although this should probably only be done as a last resort if you can't comply with the terms of the Traveller logo licence for one reason or another.

I'm sure that both Mongoose and FFE aren't keen on fragmenting the fan base between multiple competing variants of the game system. They WANT third-party publishers to help them increase the value of the Traveller brand. This should be a win/win situation where both the owner of the IP (FFE / Mongoose) and the third-party publisher benefit.

However, having said this there may be circumstances where the publisher can't comply with all of the requirements in the logo compatibility licence OR where the derivative product they create is no longer recognizable as Traveller in any meaningful sense. In both of those cases, calling it something else is reasonable.
Last edited by Prime_Evil on Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Prime_Evil » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:01 am

msprange wrote:
Universal Machine wrote: Posts here advertising the 2d6 SF SRD keep getting deleted as the 2d6 SF SRD is viewed as competition.
Actually, they keep getting deleted because you never asked us if you could make commercial posts here and seem to be treating these forums as your own stomping ground...
There's a fine line between talking about other game systems (even those that may be 'viewed as competition') and using the forum to spam people.

It's probably OK to discuss your products in the context of Traveller, but it's not cool to posts advertisements for products that aren't directly related to Traveller (which in this context means "released under the Traveller logo licence"). Try telling us how your products might be used to flesh out elements of the Traveller character generation process rather than presenting them as an alternative standalone game system. If you've got questions, I'd recommend dropping Matt an email - he's a busy man and may take a while to get back to you, but he's fairly approachable.

Also, keep in mind that this is forum belongs to Mongoose - they pay the bills to keep it online so they get to make the rules. This place regularly gets hit by spammers, so please give them the benefit of the doubt when deleting unsolicited commercial advertisements.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:33 am

Prime_Evil wrote: However, having said this there may be circumstances where the publisher can't comply with all of the requirements in the logo compatibility licence OR where the derivative product they create is no longer recognizable as Traveller in any meaningful sense. In both of those cases, calling it something else is reasonable.
Or drop us a line and say 'hey, we want to do X but it is technically against your licences - is there anyway we can work round this?'

We have given special dispensations before - our goal with OGC is to help other publishers, not lock them down.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed May 07, 2014 5:48 am

Hmmm....despite the problems with the way the products that form the subject of this thread have been marketed, I've picked them up and they do raise interesting questions about whether character generation for Traveller can (or should) be completely random. Given that Traveller has old-school sensibilities when it comes randomness in character generation, I'd be interested to know whether material helping to roll up a detailed pre-career background for your characters is something that people actually want - is this a good idea? Would you like the ability to randomly determine your adventurer's family background during character generation or would you prefer to choose the details during play? Would you like the OPTION to roll up some background details that you can mine for inspiration, even if you don't use them in full?

(I note that the only review for these products on DriveThru RPG gives it one star because it is possible to have a family background that includes homosexual, polygamist or transgendered parents - however, it's not entirely clear whether the reviewer feels that listing these options limits the player's ability to choose these details or whether he simply doesn't like the concept on ideological grounds...)
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby hiro » Wed May 07, 2014 6:00 am

Isn't the randomness of chargen one of Traveller's strong points?

I read recently, can't remember where but I think it was on this forum, that a player would simply roll characters till s/he got one that met the requirement. What was the point of that? Why roll multiples and discard them? Why not just choose what you want and not roll any dice at all?

I like that the random qualities of a character push me to role play the character produced rather than the same character over and over.
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby Prime_Evil » Wed May 07, 2014 6:09 am

I agree, but that's a very old-school attitude - many modern RPGs emphasize the importance of empowering player choice rather than respecting the authority of the dice. It looks like the author of these SRD expansions prefers random character generation too. But I'm curious if other players here feel the same way...
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Re: Basic Character Generation 2d6 SF SR

Postby rje » Wed May 07, 2014 3:33 pm

atpollard wrote:... "Paleo Wanderer" ...
Ooooh, Paleo Wanderer. I like the way you added "Paleo" to it to reinforce its Lo-TL focus.

I suppose "Paleo Traveller" or "PaleoTraveller" would work just as well. I'll have to think about that.
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