Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

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dmccoy1693
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby dmccoy1693 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:23 pm

Benzaiten26 wrote: It is the reason I signed up to comment on this forum, so I think so. Lol.
Greetings. Please stick around after this topic is settled to discuss more Traveller topics.
Last edited by dmccoy1693 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nerhesi
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Nerhesi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:34 pm

Lets dispense with realism dominated debate and consider the cleaner usage of the skill system.

I'm sticking with the majority and voting for Energy/Slug differentiation.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:07 pm

Some interesting suggestions here, my 2Cr are
1. Weapon specialisations, the current slug pistols/slug rifles/energy pistol/energy rifle/shotgun seems better than the OP suggestion. I fall into the school of thought that a good rifle shot can shoot a SMG or a PDW just as well, and use a LMG with the same level of skill. Carbines are just short rifles. Pistol shooting, using one hand rather than two, and shotguns, are a bit different, so deserve different skills. Call it one handed slug and two handed slug or short arm or long arm if you like.
2. One of the posts above mentioned HMGs, 50 cals, and suggested that they need a different skill from a hunting rifle. Agreed, I could see a case for large tripod mounted slug throwers having a different skill specialisation, and being included in support weapons as a "large slug thrower" speciality. In some case, eg GPMGs, the weapon could be used as a LMG, using slug rifle skill, but if put on a tripod would use the heavy weapon specialism, but with a longer range table. Though some may ask if this is a needless complication, I could see its relevance to military and merc based games.
3. The suggestions for AP rules look more straight forward. Dropping SAP seems a good idea as well, in fact, might well introduce that straight away.
4. The super destructive weapons changes for very powerful weapons make sense as well, sometimes the increased armour points of larger, but still quite small, vehicles can lead to some unintended consequences, making them too strong. For sometime now we have got round that by allowing any penetrating hit from a larger weapon to inflict twice the amount of damage which gets through the armour, and to deduct all that damage from hull, and then structure, before calculating the number of "special" hits, as usual.
5. Ranges of small arms. I feel this should be revisited, especially for SMG/PDAs, these are not assault weapons, and the limited nature of their rounds leads to a much more limited performance.

Egil
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Infojunky » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:10 pm

dmccoy1693 wrote:
Benzaiten26 wrote: It is the reason I signed up to comment on this forum, so I think so. Lol.
Greetings. Please stick around after this topic is settled to discuss more Traveller topics.
Stettled!?! If the last 20 years is any indication we will be having this discussion again even after Mat brings out the new rules..... :D

But really when taken in the right light Traveller discussions can be a blast...
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:31 pm

More of a query, really, for some reason I can't see the notes columns from the Revised Shooting Weapons Document, which might explain this. Gauss rifles seem to have lost the AP capacity, while Heavy ACRs have gained it. Presumably the other way round would make sense.

Egil
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Infojunky » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:10 pm

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:More of a query, really, for some reason I can't see the notes columns from the Revised Shooting Weapons Document, which might explain this. Gauss rifles seem to have lost the AP capacity, while Heavy ACRs have gained it. Presumably the other way round would make sense.
If you view it in web layout the table is readable. Or at least that is how it is in OpenOffice.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby DickTurpin » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:25 pm

Benzaiten26 wrote:
A pistol is used held away from the body with the arm(s) fully extended, with the shooter's primary focus on the front sight only.

A longarm is used with the arms bent, pulling the shoulder stock firmly against your shoulder, cheek pressed against the stock, and viewing the front sight through the gap in the rear sight.
So, yeah, lining up the sights is the skill. I doubt hivers or other species would do it the same way. So, how they line up the sights is irrelevent.

Clearing a weapon, compensating for recoil, leading a target, swapping ammo, zero-g effects, ammo differences and requirements. Every aspect of using a weapon (the skill) is based on the mechanism of the weapon not its barrels length.
The differences between changing clips in a slug thrower and changing the battery in an energy weapon are trivial. There is already a recoil entry for each weapon so that is a non-issue. Zero-G differences should be handled by the Zero-G skill, not the weapon skill. The only time a weapon skill is used (i.e. it modifies a dice roll) is when actually firing the weapon. So yes, I believe how the weapon is actually used is much more important that what form of energy it uses to damage the target.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby CosmicGamer » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:53 pm

DickTurpin wrote: The only time a weapon skill is used (i.e. it modifies a dice roll) is when actually firing the weapon. So yes, I believe how the weapon is actually used is much more important that what form of energy it uses to damage the target.
only?

How about Weapon Skill + (Int) for identifying alien weapons function and capabilities.

I might use a weapon skill for a character to notice something about a weapon, for example is the safety on or off.

I might allow a weapon skill to be used instead of recon or inspect to see if a character notices the bulk of a concealed weapon.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby locarno24 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:35 am

Agreed. Pairings of different skills and different stats are a basis of Traveller.

I've seen quite a list of possible uses for the skill:

Gun Combat + EDU to identify a specific pattern of weapon or manufacturer
Gun Combat + INT to figure out how to use an awkward or obscure design of weapon (especially if designed for alien ergonomics)
Gun Combat + STR for aiming something that requires brute force to aim rather than precision (like low TL artillery)

hell,
Gun Combat +SOC to comport yourself properly at a Game Shoot.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Benzaiten26 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:38 am

HERE ARE THE REASONS THE LONGARM/SHORTARMS SKILL SPECIALIZATIONS WON"T WORK:
A pistol is used held away from the body with the arm(s) fully extended, with the shooter's primary focus on the front sight only.

A longarm is used with the arms bent, pulling the shoulder stock firmly against your shoulder, cheek pressed against the stock, and viewing the front sight through the gap in the rear sight.

The only time a weapon skill is used (i.e. it modifies a dice roll) is when actually firing the weapon. So yes, I believe how the weapon is actually used is much more important that what form of energy it uses to damage the target.
In these opinions a number of assumptions are being made:

1) The shooter is human. I don't envision a hiver pressing his cheek against the stock. Do they have cheeks? Are they in the same place? Traveller encompasses many races with many very, different physiologies and the skill system has to be able to cover them all. What is the difference between a hiver pistol and rifle?

2) Weapons technology will continue to progress along the same rifle/pistol technologies we have today. WIth laser weapons lacking a recoil a laser pistol could easy be mounted on the head or on a hat like the LED flashlights we have today and fired via "bluetooth". (Let me know if you want to try that with even a 9mm...I'd like to watch) or because of the lack of recoil a laser weapon braced against the sterum instead of the shoulder and held in place with one, two or both hands, looking down into the sights that use the laser weapons own optics for targeting. How about a weapon that has a pistol grip and trigger, but the weapon itself is carried on the bottom side of the forearm? Is that a pistol or rifle? What exactly is the dividing line between a pistol and rifle? Even this definition has changed greatly over time. Even among humans, I'm guessing that a cybernetic slug pistol would be fired a bit differently from a standard slug pistol.

3) The weapon will be fired in a 1 or 0 G environment and/or in either air or vacuum. Normally, a heavier weapon that would require two hands to hold and stabilize in a 1G environment, may only need one hand in say the gravity of the moon, at least until the trigger is pulled. And, a slug weapon fired under water or in a heavier fluid environment, well, recoil wouldn't be any where near as much a problem.

4) Weapons won't be repaired or modified from their factory specifications. Player A takes a standard shotgun (rifle) and saws off the barrel, then replaces the stock with a pistol grip. How do I know he'll do it? Because it's what I'd do. We've all seen weapons with foldable stocks and pistols modified by having stocks put on. Now where do these weapons fit? Into rifles or pistols?

5) That all range weapons will have barrels. What of a sonic/sound based weapon that simply has a speaker on it as the focusing mechanism. How do we know that a Neural weapon has a barrel at all and not just an "emission plate" that directs its energy?

For all these reasons I BEG YOU not to go with the longarm/shortarm specializations under gun combat.

Please, go with the weapon mechanisms as the specializations instead:
laser weapons / slug weapons / gauss weapons / neural weapons / etc.

Separation by Civilian/Military specializations would be purely arbitrary and with vastly different law levels from system to system would be very confusing.

Separation by pistol/rifle specializations again purely arbitrary and because of blurred lines always arguable.

Separation by weapon mechanisms ... defined by physics. Now that's something I can work with. Besides, Traveller is/has been a hard science fiction setting.

BTW guys thanks for making me feel welcome and reading my posts. I hope I'm posting good arguments in a positive and productive manor. By this time on most other sites a discussion like this would've degenerated into name calling and swearing. You're making strides in restoring my faith in humanity.
Last edited by Benzaiten26 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
dmccoy1693
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby dmccoy1693 » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:05 am

We're restoring your faith in humanity? That may be the first time someone said that about the Traveller community. *just teasing*

Seriously though, I noticed now everyone is making arguments on topics without devolving into name calling and I thought that this is a nice break from a certain system that I am taking a break from (that shall remain nameless). I was going to say something before, but I was afraid I would jinx it.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Infojunky » Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:24 pm

dmccoy1693 wrote:We're restoring your faith in humanity? That may be the first time someone said that about the Traveller community. *just teasing*

Seriously though, I noticed now everyone is making arguments on topics without devolving into name calling and I thought that this is a nice break from a certain system that I am taking a break from (that shall remain nameless). I was going to say something before, but I was afraid I would jinx it.
Yes, Dale it can happen.....
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Jame Rowe » Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:20 pm

dragoner wrote:IMO, MG's should be separated out, too much ability to wreck them if one isn't trained; like shooting the barrel out on light ones like the MG42 family or checking Headspace on the M2HB. CT's original rules in Book 4 were actually quite good on this.
That's why I keep harping on the specialty "Ranged/Support" weapons - it's everything from MGs to flamethrowers to rocket launchers. All heavy weapons, and if you wanted to include vehicle mounted that's fine.

I still don't think there should be any reason to have energy weapons and slugthrowing weapons differentiated. I'd be more interested in keeping handguns and rifles (smallarms and longarms) separated.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby badpixie » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:06 pm

My honest comment?

I like the existing system because it is simple, and guns are already quite powerful enough.

Don't make the mistake of trying to turn the game into a 'realistic' combat simulation. It never will be, and if it was characters wouldn't last 2 seconds.

I hate the mods.

However, rationalising the skill categories is fine: I suspect many refs already do this anyway.

Over complication slows the game down, and is, in the end, pointless.
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Re: Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

Postby Rick » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:04 pm

A lot of posts on this topic seem to be after a similar simple form - my 2p worth: 'Gun Combat' and 'Heavy Weapon Combat' and let the characters further specialise into "Laser Shortarm", "Gauss Longarm" etc. if they wish to.

And any character calling a firearms search a "Short-Arm Inspection" will be shot out of hand!! :twisted:
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.

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