Solomani Confederation (Military)

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Condottiere
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:04 pm

Going by the modern interpretation:

1. General purpose

2. Specialized, either anti air or anti submarine warfare

3. Light, by which I assume more punch than off shore patrol

Cruising speed is not going to be an issue, unless you can tie in fuel consumption.

There's intelligence gathering and picketing duty, but with an extended array the frigate would have to drift.

Not too impressive in showing the flag.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:08 pm

Why base it on modern interpretation when projecting to the 57th century?

A frigate used to be a capable warship but not up to line of battle standard, the USS Constitution and her five sister ships were very capable heavy frigates...
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:23 pm

I considered that loophole.

It's not so much that the Confederation uses frigates, it's more that the Navy doesn't have destroyer flotillas and that their escort vessels are smaller than their Imperium opposite numbers.

Canonically, I believe the largest escort so far is the five kay tonne Sloan, and the largest destroyer (actual destroyer) is the three kay tonne Agasham.

The way I interpret it is that the dedicated warships would be the frigates.

From the design rules, the milestones would be at two, five and ten kay tonnes, so it's either two or five, and five seems out of reach.

That doesn't mean there aren't ships in the Confederation Navy larger than two kay tonnes. just that they wouldn't be dedicated combat vessels.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:35 pm

Confederation Navy: Hull Configuration


Wedge

I assume that this goes under standard, possibly streamlined, considering that Star Destroyers appear to have little problem operating within atmospheres.

The standard hull configuration for first class, frontline, dedicated Confederation warships, whether frigates, cruisers, battleships or aerospacecraft carriers.


Spherical

Confederation Navy auxiliary vessels and second class warships use the cheaper (one hundred twenty percent frontline default to eighty percent) by about one third cost hulls for their purpose built ships tasked with secondary missions, or considered somewhat expendable.

So presumably that's anything from footballs to flying saucers.


Planetoids

Cheap mobile platforms, used as placeholders for excess weapon systems; considered expendable.

Popular as utilization as less mobile space stations, and occasionally equipped with a jump drive.

There is debate whether sacrificing space for greater structural integrity in the buffered variant is worth it, opinion is divided, with a preference for second class spinal mounted platforms.


Closed and Dispersed Structures

More popular with commercial concerns.

While the modular nature makes construction faster and cheaper, the Confederation Navy prefers greater hull integrity when they have a choice, as it's easier to armour the hull.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby baithammer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:20 am

Condottiere wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:04 pm

There's intelligence gathering and picketing duty, but with an extended array the frigate would have to drift.

Not too impressive in showing the flag.
Use Rapid Deployment Extended Arrays which allow the ship to use thrust or jump drives in the same combat turn as the sensor array deployment.

As for planetoids, they are best used as spinal railgun platforms as an iron rich large asteroid could sustain the manufacture of ammunition for it. ( Great for siege operations.)
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:27 am

Confederation Navy: Primary Weaponry and Warship Designation


Meson Gun Spinal Mount - Warship Designation

Factor 1 - Light Cruiser
Factor 2 - Heavy Cruiser
Factor 3 - Battle Cruiser/Light Battle Ship
Factor 4 - Battle Ship
Factor 5 - Heavy Battle Ship


Railgun Spinal Mount - Warship Designation

Factor 1 - Light Cruiser/Monitor
Factor 2 - Light Cruiser
Factor 3 - Light Cruiser
Factor 4 - Heavy Cruiser
Factor 5 - Heavy Cruiser

Factor 6 - Battle Ship/Monitor


Particle Accelerator Spinal Mount - Warship Designation

Factor 1 - Light Cruiser
Factor 2 - Light Cruiser
Factor 3 - Heavy Cruiser
Factor 4 - Heavy Cruiser
Factor 5 - Light Battle Ship
Factor 6 - Light Battle Ship
Factor 7 - Battle Ship
Factor 8 - Battle Ship
Condottiere
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:23 pm

The Evolution of the Star Destroyer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irPsEdCQKik

Star Destroyers where did it all start? Today we cover the evolution of the Star Destroyers from the Old Republic Era until the First Order.


Mandalore.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:58 am

Confederation Navy: Condottiere Class Colonial Cruising Frigate

You may have been wondering where this has all been heading.

You should set up the ground rules, even if vaguely, under which you plan to operate in, and while I doubt I'll ever get around to trying to give more than a bare outline to the Confederation Navy's Order of Battle, mostly because there's very little material, and some of it I find unpalatable, I'm to have a go at a general purpose frigate, since several strands seemed to have come together recently.

From the first edition of High Guard, I was pretty sure I could design a better version of the Broadsword class mercenary cruiser, a legacy design. As I recall, it was either going to be at four hundred or a thousand tonnes, which I had identified as design sweet spots. Eventually, the second edition came out, and it's taking a while to figure out the ins and outs, not helped by the need to infer a lot of the details, which runs the risk of being non canonical if challenged.

First came hull configuration; I'm not fond of the spherical shape, and I kinda thought having a fixed undercarriage more in terms of streamlining, which I eventually considered unrelated to the issue. Then five pylons as being more stable, but also connected to manoeuvre drive housings and docking space, ie five cutters and/or smallcraft, and I discarded that as well. So I settled for a sphere with a tripod under carriage, as part of the overall minimalist approach.

I'll address the naming convention; It's not really aggrandisement, it just fit in with the mercenary aspect, the smaller variant I was originally going for had been the Contractor class (that was an Easter egg), and it's meant to be as far as I can stretch it, alliterative.

I thought about it, and came to the conclusion that outside the heavy and battle cruiser, the modern Confederation Navy isn't bothered with the definition of cruiser, as long as the vessel is jump capable and is armed; they feel it also helps confuse enemy intelligence and obfuscate operations, as well as the exact performance and capabilities of the vessel in question.

The technology level of the Broadsword is a default twelve, which is fine if I don't plan to armour it, or go beyond a three parsec range.

While the Broadsword is eight hundred tonnes in displacement, I'm going to go with a nineteen hundred ninety tonne tripodial sphere; it's twenty percent cheaper than standard, and partially streamlined, which a careful pilot can fairly easily land on most planets.

The default technological level depends on the expected role of the vessel in question, which could well be commercial.

A tonne short of two thousand suits quite well, as it places the vessel in a category harder to hit with most largish weapon systems; add two pop up turrets, and you need something larger than a pop gun to cause criticals.

You can build a technological level seven titanium steel hull if you don't need artificial gravity plates installed all over the place, judicious use of the manoeuvre drive would provide that down to earth feeling, since with the permanent tripod land gear, it really is a tail sitter.

You can bump it up to nine, though to be fair there doesn't seem to be any difference in the bill of materials, except you're paying double for artificially induced gravity throughout the ship.

At technological level ten, you can install a fair bit of armouring, though I'd guess that any ship that will be armoured from the start would be manufactured at technological level fourteen spaceyard.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:21 am

Confederation Navy: Condottiere Class Colonial Cruising Frigate

Does design follow performance, or performance follow design?

Having established a standardized size for the engines, performance flows from how many of these modules are then installed.

For acceleration, you'd have a spread between factors one to seven. One's too slow, and seven isn't necessary, since the general purpose frigate wouldn't be envisioned as keeping up with the premier units, nor as being their close escorts. Three is the speed of the Broadsword, but that only seems to make sense in light that it used to require a greater percentage of volume to achieve; therefore, five gee acceleration seems appropriate for warship, even one intended for secondary duties or theatres.

Luckily, that would be about a hundred tonnes at default, which could be a hundred and five tonne example, or it could be split into three modules, located in each pylon.

Jump drives are larger, and at default, a hundred and five tonne module delivers four thousand parsec tonnes, which means two modules could propel the Condottiere four parsecs, a requirement to patrol the edges of empire and allow a fairly rapid deployment.

Five thirty five tonne modules at default could power a two kay tonne hull to three parsecs distance.

A hundred and five tonne very advanced fusion reactor should provide more than enough power at nearly two kiloscotts.

A hundred and five tonne module allows easy centralization, and thus only one engineer to monitor; a thirty five tonne module would normally require one engineer each.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:28 am

Confederation Navy: Condottiere Class Colonial Cruising Frigate

For non specialized combat vessels, you'd want a balanced weapons package, and the term general purpose tends to hint at that.

What's balanced is probably a matter of taste, but the Confederation does have a number of canon cannon guidelines. Plus two pop up turrets, to change the dynamics of targetting vulnerability.

First off, they seem to like nuclear missiles. I don't, but that means that every Confederation warship is likely to have a store of them, and that means missile launchers, possibly torpedo tubes.

We now know that barbettes can be incorporated as fixed mounts, just not exactly how.

Let's skip that for now.

A lot has to do with what threats the Admiralty expects the warship to face, and it expects the crew to fight, not always the same thing. Let's forget the Kinunir, a colonial cruiser is an attempt to create a cheap ship that can deal with a non peer opponent, and protect the Empire's interests from near peer ones at it's edges.

The weapons package doesn't need to beat a near peer opponent, just deter it from attacking or considering the colonial cruiser easy meat. Possibly, this is where the nuclear option comes in.

First off, does the Condottiere class need a bay weapon system? No, because whereas it could face a larger opponent, these could be dealt with with torpedoes, which can be fixedly mounted.

The primary weapon system the Condottiere would be built around would the the Close In Weapons System, the Type Three Point Defence twenty tonne battery, since at thrust five, it's less likely to be able to outrun a missile salvo, and I'm still living in hope that eventually you can use it against smallcraft.

Correspondingly, long range would be provided by three fixed mounted missile barbettes, configured into five tubes revolving in a cylinder, an idea borrowed from the Darrians, which saves on individual loading space, and can be connected to three respective missile racks holding twenty five missiles each. That would be a rate of fire of seventy two seconds.

For the knock out blow, three torpedo barbettes configured into fixed mounts, also using Darrianish three tube revolving cylinders.

An ion barbette seems useful, for disabling smaller ships without acting on the threat to blow them to pieces.

The remaining ten hardpoints could be triple beam lasers turrets.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:28 am

Ion weapons do not exist in the 3I setting. They are from Star Wars.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:44 pm

I thought so too.

But it's much clearer than meson bays.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:51 pm

Meson bays are included in the IN ship designs in HG2e - despite protestations to the contrary meson bays remain canonical for IN 3I ships in MgT.
Meson bays have been part of capital ship design since 1979 High Guard.

Ion weapons have never been part of the OTU.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:02 pm

But they're not in the weapons chapter, whereas the ion cannons are.

Apparently, the Imperium Navy warships were supposed to be copied in toto from the previous editions, despite the dichotomy.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:34 pm

The weapons chapter is not for the OTU - there are no tachyon cannons in the OTU either.

I said during the playtest that HG2e needed to be much clearer over what tech is and is not allowed in the OTU.

Also note that The Great Rift canonises using collectors, and fuel efficient jump drives, within the OTU; wait 'til you see the warship designs that become possible thanks to those two changes to the OTU.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:43 pm

They'd have to expand on the primitive and advanced options chapter.

Be consistent and coherent, it resolves a lot of issues.

If meson bays are in, they're in, which is important to know especially regarding the Confederation warship design and planetary defences.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby baithammer » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:44 pm

MGT 2ed Traveller appears to be trying to move to providing a non-setting based general rule set, which is rather confusing when examples are from 3rd Imp setting.

Further weapons and systems have major changes in how they work between editions ( Meson Screens for example) to the point of being fairly inconsistent between the core books. ( Nuclear dampers I'm looking at you.)

For the next version it would be a good idea to either use scratch built example designs or have a 3rd Imp lite for examples, with a separate section for generic rules.

I do like a lot the simplified structure but with unclear guidance the mish mash of past and present rule sets make a coherent baseline a bit difficult. ( For those who want nuts and bolts, T5 is rather interesting.)

Meson Bays are rather evil with rules as written with Meson Screens scaling rather poorly.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:04 am

It may only be me, but I have trouble keeping track of the design rules.

Anyway:
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:27 am

Confederation Navy: Tonnage and Warship Designation

Battle ship - two hundred kilotonnes plus
Battle cruiser - one hundred thirty kilotonnes plus
Heavy cruiser - one hundred kilotonnes plus

* cruiser - jump capable vessel

(Fast) Fleet frigate - eight to twenty hundred tonnes
Corvette - one to seven hundred tonnes


That's the current definitions.

I don't think there are any current canon Imperium escorts vessels at two kilotonnes. This volume seems appropriate for the majority of Confederation frigates, since they're operating under a technical level handicap. One on one with an Imperium destroyer escort should give the Confederation frigates at least a fifty percent advantage, and two together should be able to take on a three kilotonne destroyer, three should hold their own with a five kilotonne fleet escort.

I suspect the expectation is that the large patrol ship/escort for the Confederation is a kilotonne, but with this I'd have to break with intent, since numbers aren't discretionary, so you'd have to have the optimized version of them.

Colonial cruisers are more of a very optimized cost benefit solution.
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Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Confederation Navy: Solomani Rim Sector Fleet

Apparently, a full sector fleet is stationed in four subsectors, minus the battle rider squadrons, which many or may not have been replaced with Fleet Squadrons.

Twelve Patrol Squadrons are assigned with twenty patrol ships. That's three squadrons squeezed into one subsector, which feels crowded.

The way I see it, you have one Patrol Squadron assigned to cover about one subsector, since their purpose is to patrol and keep an eye what's going on, specifically keeping the lines of communication open internally, and seeing no one sneaks across the borders along the frontier.

Excess patrol ships and squadrons assigned to the sector headquarters, so that they can dole them out for special assignments and bolster the defences of the carrier and assault squadrons, because they sure look like they need it.

Carrier Squadrons are likely to get teamed up first with a Fleet Squadron as escort, and then temporarily assigned to an Assault Squadron, as and when needed.

Am Assault Squadron seems terribly understaffed, considering the fact they are supposed to have likely Confederation Army stormtrooper divisions and corps assigned to them, if they are seriously going to liberate the Occupied Territories, unless these are reserve units only activated for Unternehmen Barbarossa.

You'd have to define the size of a typical large or smaller assault transports, the four commando ones are supposedly between eight to twelve hundred and comparable to the Broadsword. I don't think that will work out.

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