Page 1 of 34

Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:24 pm
by Condottiere
1. Apparently, no Scout Service, that function being performed by the Navy.

2. Makes sense if the idea is to assert control and access through a central institution.

3. Does seem to go against traditionalist Solomani, or at least American, values.

4. Maybe the Navy coordinates activities, and outsources the work to PMCs and other private corporations.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:25 pm
by dragoner
Condottiere wrote:
3. Does seem to go against traditionalist Solomani, or at least American, values.
What?

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:25 am
by Condottiere
In order to really want to play a faction, you should be able to empathize with it. While the Solomani Confederation overtly has a number of similarities with the PRC including a sense of superiority, victimhood and anticipation and a powerful need to control or influence institutions, what drives individuals and local politics may have more to do with a sense of independence, which you could reasonably identify with the North American continent.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:36 pm
by Somebody
It would work just as well for most european powers in the 1850s-1914 setting. "White man's burden" and "Worthy Alien Gentleman" all while playing the "Great Game" against the evil 3I.

Imperial Germany would work very nicely as a template including the fleet strategy and the state deputies (Reichsrat) as a stand in for at least part of the "Solomanie Party"

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:49 pm
by dragoner
Condottiere wrote:In order to really want to play a faction, you should be able to empathize with it. While the Solomani Confederation overtly has a number of similarities with the PRC including a sense of superiority, victimhood and anticipation and a powerful need to control or influence institutions, what drives individuals and local politics may have more to do with a sense of independence, which you could reasonably identify with the North American continent.
Are you now talking about the whole polity vs North America? That is even more of a "what?" Originally it seemed you were talking about the military.

Considering that the Solomani are traditionally the champions of human supremacy, that is pretty much fascist. I actually never much cared for the representation of the Solomani as a bunch of "Space Nazis" in Traveller.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:14 pm
by rust
Condottiere wrote:1. Apparently, no Scout Service, that function being performed by the Navy.
Well, Traveller is basically "Age of Sail in Space", and in the historical
Age of Sail the maritime exploration was a typical task of the navies.
Almost all of the famous maritime explorers of this age were navy of-
ficers who commanded navy ships. In this regard the Solomani are
closer to the game's historical role models than the Imperium.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:01 pm
by Condottiere
1. It is about the military, but the military tends to reflect the State it serves.

2. You could just recruit a bunch of thugs commanded by a clique of ruthlessly ambitious officers, but thousands of years experience should have convinced most Admiralties that that's a sub-optimal solution.

3. Also, it seems to me that the Navy is actually only a fraction of the entire population, which means you can pick and choose from the recruiting pool.

4. What I'm after is the composition and doctrines of the Solomani military, and possible the evolution thereof.

5. That would give a clue in the likely ship specs and order of battle.

6. Current developments, as well historical ones, would also be influential. The indications are that the Solomani had a blitzkrieg strategy, combined with an overly high reliance on battlecruisers, and a fondness for carrier groups.

7. They seemed to have adopted the Imperium's strategy of a hard shell with battleships, reinforced in the event of hostilities by battle riders. Which, if true, seems a pity.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 6:17 pm
by dragoner
It only separated from the Imperium a short time ago, so what influences the Imperium, would be it's influences a well. Today would influence it about as much as the Theban Sacred Band influences the PRC's People's Army. The main differences would be in that it's mean TL for acquisition would be lower, and that it's total resource pool would be less. That being said, it would mostly be BR's and long legged cruisers.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:05 pm
by dragoner
rust wrote: Well, Traveller is basically "Age of Sail in Space"...
Just communications, nobody is prancing around in knee breeches and pancake makeup; that is one of the biggest mistakes of how people see traveller, imo.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:39 am
by ShawnDriscoll
Condottiere wrote:1. Apparently, no Scout Service, that function being performed by the Navy.

2. Makes sense if the idea is to assert control and access through a central institution.

3. Does seem to go against traditionalist Solomani, or at least American, values.

4. Maybe the Navy coordinates activities, and outsources the work to PMCs and other private corporations.
The Solomani have nothing to do with America or the values it may have had in the past.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:06 am
by Condottiere
1. The Solomani base their superiority on Terra being the genesis of Humaniti, which would make them inclined to cling on to their heritage all the much harder; that seems reflected in the ship naming conventions.

2. No one likes to be dictated to, but they like to follow attractive ideologies. The Confederation would be a mass of insurrections without a great deal of consent by the governed.

3. You could argue that like after the discovery of the New World, all the most ambitious, the most desperate and innovative of the Terrans migrated to the space now occupied by the Imperium, leaving behind the dregs of humanity, but the Europeans may be less inclined to share that view.

4. The problem with the Navy taking responsibility for what we think are traditional Scouting activities, is that they are less focussed in finessing their combat abilities. This tends to work in order to find employment for their less occupied officers during peacetime, and pushes them into the territory occupied by Star Fleet, not quite what I pictured the Confederation Navy was like.

5. This wouldn't really take away from their sense of racial superiority or destiny if you either think of the Japanese, the Chinese, the English or even American exceptionalism.

6. During the time of the last bust up with the Imperium, the Confederation Navy seems to be based on Task Groups and Forces, which provides an interesting amount of flexibility. And therefore, a lot more intriguing to play around with.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:24 am
by steelbrok
Condottiere wrote:
3. You could argue that like after the discovery of the New World, all the most ambitious, the most desperate and innovative of the Terrans migrated to the space now occupied by the Imperium, leaving behind the dregs of humanity, but the Europeans may be less inclined to share that view.
Only those who couldn't make it in the old Terran Confederation went to Hiroshi's new Imperium

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:53 pm
by dragoner
I think something is wrong with his brakes. :P

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:37 am
by coldwar
Noticed something dragoner spoke about.

I absolutely agree with you on the misconception of the Age of Sail.
Literally any ship coming in to harbour, commonly merchants, had to take on an allotment of mail, if the declared their destination. Most ports enforced that merchants must as well. And thus most mail delivered by sea in the Age of Sail came through merchant shipping.

Also in my own setting that is what I am doing. Merchants do most of the mail instead of scouts, who mostly just explore in an unorganised fashion, however they wish. Which was the same of explorers as well in the Age of Sail, as long as they could find funds, they could do what ever they wanted. Many being civilians.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:25 am
by Egil Skallagrimsson
coldwar wrote:Noticed something dragoner spoke about.

I absolutely agree with you on the misconception of the Age of Sail.
Literally any ship coming in to harbour, commonly merchants, had to take on an allotment of mail, if the declared their destination. Most ports enforced that merchants must as well. And thus most mail delivered by sea in the Age of Sail came through merchant shipping.

Also in my own setting that is what I am doing. Merchants do most of the mail instead of scouts, who mostly just explore in an unorganised fashion, however they wish. Which was the same of explorers as well in the Age of Sail, as long as they could find funds, they could do what ever they wanted. Many being civilians.
Surely this is what the 5 ton electronic mail containers carted around by Free Traders do? The scouts do the main routes, but deliveries to less important planets are done by merchants.

Egil

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:38 am
by Egil Skallagrimsson
Condottiere wrote:4. The problem with the Navy taking responsibility for what we think are traditional Scouting activities, is that they are less focussed in finessing their combat abilities. This tends to work in order to find employment for their less occupied officers during peacetime, and pushes them into the territory occupied by Star Fleet, not quite what I pictured the Confederation Navy was like.
I don't what the problem is here, the Solomani have decided that a well organised military force can carry out explorations at least as well as civilian agency. Both Solomani (and Zhodani) as well as the Imperial model can be extrapolated from explorations on Earth 1500-1900. In regard to finessing combat abilities, the main fleet units are not going to be exploring, that will be done by (Solomani Navy operated) scout ships of various sizes. A term on an exploration mission may well help a Solomani Naval Officer by developing flexibility, problem solving and possibly diplomatic skills, rather than just spending his entire career wargaming (or, as History suggests, learning how to fight the last war really well) and overseeing the polishing of meson guns. Certainly didn't do Capt Kirk any harm!

Egil

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:12 pm
by rust
coldwar wrote:And thus most mail delivered by sea in the Age of Sail came through merchant shipping.
While this was the case in the late Age of Exploration / early Age of Sail,
the states which had aquired overseas territories during the Age of Ex-
ploration soon established official mail services which mostly replaced the
transport of mail by merchant ships. For example, Britain established its
Falmouth Packet ships in 1688.
Which was the same of explorers as well in the Age of Sail, as long as they could find funds, they could do what ever they wanted. Many being civilians.
Again, this was more typical for the Age of Exploration and the very early
Age of Sail. Once those states interested in maritime exploration had de-
veloped true navies, the exploration became one of the tasks of these na-
vies, which is why almost all of the famous explorers like James Cook and
Jules Dumont d'Urville were naval officers.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:29 pm
by rust
Egil Skallagrimsson wrote: In regard to finessing combat abilities, the main fleet units are not going to be exploring ...
Indeed, many of the famous exploration ships were actually modified
merchant ships in naval service, like the Astrolabe of La Perouse (a
fluyt), the Astrolabe of Dumont d'Urville (a horse carrier) or the Endea-
vour (a collier) and the Resolution (another collier) of James Cook. The
few true warships among the exploration ships were small ones, like
the sloop Beagle or the bomb vessel Erebus, I very much doubt that
anything bigger than a small frigate was ever used on an exploration
mission.

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:32 pm
by Egil Skallagrimsson
rust wrote:
Egil Skallagrimsson wrote: In regard to finessing combat abilities, the main fleet units are not going to be exploring ...
Indeed, many of the famous exploration ships were actually modified
merchant ships in naval service, like the Astrolabe of La Perouse (a
fluyt), the Astrolabe of Dumont d'Urville (a horse carrier) or the Endea-
vour (a collier) and the Resolution (another collier) of James Cook. The
few true warships among the exploration ships were small ones, like
the sloop Beagle or the bomb vessel Erebus, I very much doubt that
anything bigger than a small frigate was ever used on an exploration
mission.
Agreed. :D

Re: Solomani Confederation (Military)

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:00 pm
by dragoner
This exemplifies why I say carrying the "age of sail" theme too far is sub-optimal. IMO, it isn't the exploration duties of the IISS being replaced by the Navy, it is the survey and other duties that seem more problematic. I could see at least there being some bureau of standards to replicate those functions.