SDB's vs. Warships

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Reynard
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby Reynard » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:07 am

Expert systems go rid of all the professionals who once could afford the tickets.

Could have been worst and all the jobs are outsourced to vargr worlds... or illegal aliens.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:12 am

Reynard wrote:Expert systems go rid of all the professionals who once could afford the tickets.
A ticket is like 20 Grand. (current money). The % that could afford that is tiny. Most people, if they were to travel between star systems would do it via freezer. It is also more profitable, in most cases, for the carrier.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:01 am

While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.
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Condottiere
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:31 am

As I understand it, the higher the TL, the longer it takes to write off depreciation on starships, and I vaguely recall from a century with TL12 to a millenia with TL15.

Also, maintenance cost at 0.1% per annum is paradisical, considering that normal usage means we can start writing off our warships and fighters anywhere between ten and twenty years due to structural stress.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby locarno24 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:57 pm

Somewhat surprisingly, the economics of refuelling like this don't really add up, for a merchant ship at least. GGs are usually some distance from the main world, which is where you want to go, and what you save in fuel costs are lost in the transit time to the destination where you intend to off-load.

Of course, if you are not trading, and have plenty of time to wander around the out-system, then fine, I doubt if the Imperial authorities will be bothered if you scoop a little hydrogen.
You'll probably find that the 'gas giant refuel' only really gets used by people who have no business at the system's mainworld - or in a 'transit' uninhabited system between two actual settled worlds.

Even assuming you jump in at the gas giant, something like Jupiter (Diameter ~140,000 Km) it will take somewhere in the region of 10 hours at a merchant's 2G acceleration to reach the upper atmosphere, and a similar time to break back to the jump limit.

That means that on reaching a gas giant, you've got about 10+D6+24+10 hours - 2 days - of refuelling operations before you can jump out again...
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:39 pm

GypsyComet wrote:While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.
They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:21 pm

F33D wrote:
GypsyComet wrote:While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.
They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.
That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

The standard map is going to have a lot of worlds with only a small city's worth of people total, and C+ ports are very common as well. The port's cargo processing in such places is more likely to be a combination of seaport and airport. Most ports already handle mail, but that is containerized for security purposes, and probably in half-ton or one-ton blocks. Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby AndrewW » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:26 pm

GypsyComet wrote:That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.
Could be occasional indvidual packages needing delivery, such as someone with a relative on a anohter world they want to send a gift to.
GypsyComet wrote:Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...
There is occasionaly some with a smaller cargo hold located near the staterooms for personal storage and such. So there may be a reason for not having it all together in one big hold.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:40 pm

GypsyComet wrote:
F33D wrote:
GypsyComet wrote:While even the tramps should be capable of carrying containers, if anyone is carrying break-bulk, it will be the tramps.
They can, but IMTU Starports won't take it in the 1st place. So, you'll see it at D starports on TL5 or less planets only.
That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.

The standard map is going to have a lot of worlds with only a small city's worth of people total, and C+ ports are very common as well. The port's cargo processing in such places is more likely to be a combination of seaport and airport. Most ports already handle mail, but that is containerized for security purposes, and probably in half-ton or one-ton blocks. Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...
The smallest IMTU is 1 Ton. 2-4 ton being the average. As far as MGT Merchant ship deckplans? I disregard as they are shoddy in their accuracy and are not designed from a function monitors form viewpoint.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:42 pm

AndrewW wrote:
GypsyComet wrote:That's a bit of a broad brush, but it does depend on what size you are thinking of when you say "container". When *I* say "break-bulk" I'm referring to packages smaller than the already portrayed 4-ton container. They can still be pretty large, and given that the commerce rules work in whole tons, either whole ton or half ton containers are probably as small as any same Captain will deal with directly. Packing the hold with separate shoe boxes is not what I had in mind.
Could be occasional indvidual packages needing delivery, such as someone with a relative on a anohter world they want to send a gift to.
That would be mail, or, by the example of some old JTAS material, a small Cr Patron.
GypsyComet wrote:Possibly smaller, given that some of the Mongoose deckplans put cargo in amazing places...
There is occasionaly some with a smaller cargo hold located near the staterooms for personal storage and such. So there may be a reason for not having it all together in one big hold.
What the passengers and crew bring aboard is also going to be a different handling mechanism, but is one of the reasons I mention airports. One of the little known services at airports is gate-to-gate personal shipping, for when it has to be across the country *today*.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:46 pm

F33D wrote: The smallest IMTU is 1 Ton. 2-4 ton being the average. As far as MGT Merchant ship deckplans? I disregard as they are shoddy in their accuracy and are not designed from a function monitors form viewpoint.
So not too incompatible, then.

I don't automatically toss their deckplans out, but that is because a) I can do my own revisions should I need to, and b) not all cultures think like we do.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:14 pm

GypsyComet wrote: So not too incompatible, then.

I don't automatically toss their deckplans out, but that is because a) I can do my own revisions should I need to, and b) not all cultures think like we do.
Yes, pretty compatible. I also do my own deckplans. As far as culture, I'm assuming that because of the extreme cost of starship tonnage, the best designs will eventually force out uneconomical ones. In a Free market they will 100% of the time.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby Condottiere » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:05 pm

I doubt that in military procurement, except in existential struggles.

The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal. Or even in Russia's.

As regards small cargoes, shipping companies can sell space in standard containers. You probably have to have them packed in the vacuum equivalent of standard pallets.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby rust » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:18 pm

Condottiere wrote: The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal.
The new generation of light armoured vehicles currently introduced in several European armed for-
ces consists of designs which are basically "upgraded technicals" with some added armour as pro-
tection against for example IEDs. Examples are the Eagle and the Enok.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... gle_IV.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... uselang=de
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:52 pm

rust wrote:
Condottiere wrote: The best bang for your buck militarized ground vehicle is the four wheel drive Toyota pickup, and it's cousins, also referred to as technicals. I don't see those replacing Bradleys, Jackals or Warriors anytime soon in the NATO arsenal.
The new generation of light armoured vehicles currently introduced in several European armed for-
ces consists of designs which are basically "upgraded technicals" with some added armour as pro-
tection against for example IEDs. Examples are the Eagle and the Enok.
Here's an example of a US model: http://www.military1.com/products/milit ... h-4x4-mmpv
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:29 pm

locarno24 wrote:
Somewhat surprisingly, the economics of refuelling like this don't really add up, for a merchant ship at least. GGs are usually some distance from the main world, which is where you want to go, and what you save in fuel costs are lost in the transit time to the destination where you intend to off-load.

Of course, if you are not trading, and have plenty of time to wander around the out-system, then fine, I doubt if the Imperial authorities will be bothered if you scoop a little hydrogen.
You'll probably find that the 'gas giant refuel' only really gets used by people who have no business at the system's mainworld - or in a 'transit' uninhabited system between two actual settled worlds.

Even assuming you jump in at the gas giant, something like Jupiter (Diameter ~140,000 Km) it will take somewhere in the region of 10 hours at a merchant's 2G acceleration to reach the upper atmosphere, and a similar time to break back to the jump limit.

That means that on reaching a gas giant, you've got about 10+D6+24+10 hours - 2 days - of refuelling operations before you can jump out again...
Agreed.

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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:03 pm

I put Bay weapons in my SDBs and they become MUCH tougher.

Also, the SDB's listed in the literature are all the smaller ones. There are SDB's that can take on Cruisers and Battleships - they are typically called Monitors.

Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:24 pm

Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote: Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!
Truth. Now, speaking of smugglers, they have to land and refuel 99% of the time. When they are landed is when you inspect them. One 6G 400t SDB somewhere inside the planets 100D limit is all you need for the very infrequent outbound intercept.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby locarno24 » Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:56 pm

Also, for a typical Traveller game, you don't need a 50KTn Monitor stopping a Free Trader for smuggling inspections!
Need, no. Want?

Sometimes a little fear is good for players.

speaking of smugglers, they have to land and refuel 99% of the time. When they are landed is when you inspect them. One 6G 400t SDB somewhere inside the planets 100D limit is all you need for the very infrequent outbound intercept.
True if you're only talking about someone inbound to the world's lowport; realistically your patrol region of interest is a cone with the apex at the downport and the 'face' at the 100D jump perimeter. That probably makes for two ships in real life (because one will be down for maintenance or training some of the time), which to the way the military plan things probably means three (so you can always have a reserve in case of failures/accidents even during maintenance draw-downs).

A ship coming in to land on the opposite side of the planet would take rather more intercepting (although if it's going to land to offload you've still probably got time with a 6G gunship), but only if, as you say, it doesn't need to refuel. Something capable of a double-jump is more of an issue, but that only really pops up as a situation where there are several worlds within jump-1 of each other; carrying enough fuel for a double jump-2 makes a ship pretty useless for any cargo-related purpose, even hauling high-value illegals...
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: SDB's vs. Warships

Postby F33D » Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:04 pm

locarno24 wrote: True if you're only talking about someone inbound to the world's lowport; realistically your patrol region of interest is a cone with the apex at the downport and the 'face' at the 100D jump perimeter.
If they are inbound they will land. No need for a ship obviously. It is IF you F-up and don't spot them that you need that one ship (YES I know there will be one or two others not deployed) patrolling to intercept if they try to run. When I say ONE, I mean on patrol. You don't patrol near the downport as the planet has defenses that can fry a smuggler. Same with near the UP Port.

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