Ship Design Philosophy

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:17 pm

Starships: Hulls and Cruise Liner

Speaking of cruisers:

Image

It's a conceptual design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LKgtdNFi-g

Explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm5RKsewmCk

Instead of a gondola, you might prefer a penthouse view, though it's quite possible that you might have both, and passenger liners actually have the bunkerage and the engineering in a central core, while the passenger cabins and common areas are spread across just under the hull, and you may even have a hamster cage acting as a revolving restaurant.
wbnc
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby wbnc » Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:48 pm

Condottiere wrote:Starships: Hulls and Cruise Liner

Instead of a gondola, you might prefer a penthouse view, though it's quite possible that you might have both, and passenger liners actually have the bunkerage and the engineering in a central core, while the passenger cabins and common areas are spread across just under the hull, and you may even have a hamster cage acting as a revolving restaurant.
That definately ahs potential. I know one complaint astronauts have.."NOT ENOUGH WINDOW SPACE" they spend a lot of their down time looking out portholes. These are guys who are seasoned sorts, with daily exposure to the view and they never get tired of it. giving passengers a wall length window they can set beside and enjoy dinner with open space as scenery :D yeah you can get high passage rates for that alone.

jumpspace views may not get the same response. A cloud of roiling hydrogen plasma isn't the most interesting view in the universe. Then again depending, on whether or not you get that lovely St Elmo's fire effect along the hull grid...it might be. it would definitely be great mood lighting.
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:23 am

Starships: Engineering, Dry Jumping, and Jump Nets

A jump net consists of special field cables attached to the rear of a ship that extend the vessel’s jump field to include additional cargo contained within the net. While this can look exceedingly crude, a great deal of engineering goes into making it work and it remains both cheap and effective.

A jump net consumes one tonne per hundred tonnes of cargo carrying capacity, at a cost of three hundred thousand credits per tonne.


Obviously, what happens is that you spread the jump net over the hull of your starship, fire up the jump drive, and energize the jump net.

There's no need to process the hydrogen through the jump drive to create the jump bubble, since you now have a jump field.

While you have to spend an extra thirty million schmuckers per hundred tonnes of hull, you can make that up by converting all that unused bunkerage into cargo holds, or shrinking your designs if they're larger than a hundred tonnes.


Oops, I misread that.

The netscaping dry jumping would only cost an extra one tonne, and three hundred thousand credits per hundred tonnes of hull; so quite a bargain.
Last edited by Condottiere on Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:04 pm

Spaceships: Hulls and Flipping the Bird

Image

Couldn't locate a gif of the Simpson's rotating couch gag, nor the secret swivel wall from Scooby Doo.

So, the idea is that on both sides you attach a docking clamp; this allows the docking clamp in the outside to have one spacecraft ready to launch or dock, while on the other side, the spacecraft can be serviced. Then you flip the hull section.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:26 pm

Starship: Torpedo Class, or Smallest Possible, Well, Cheapest Anyway

Hull
. 35 tonnes
. 12 points
. technological level nine
. self-sealing
. gravitated
. lightened hull
.. MCI 1.3125
. streamlined
.. MCI 0.2625
. armour
.. none
Engineering
. manoeuvre
.. factor one
.. technological level nine
.. budgeted
... increased size
.. 0.4375 tonnes
.. MCI 0.525
. jump
.. factor one
.. technological level nine
.. budgeted
... increased size
.. ten tonnes
.. MCI 9.0
. power plant
.. early fusion
.. eight scotts
.. technological level eight
.. budgeted
... increased size
.. one tonne
.. MCI 0.375
.. energy requirements
... basic
.... 7
... manoeuvre
.... 3.5
... jump
.... 10
... weapons
... screens
... systems
. high efficiency batteries
.. basic
.. 0.25 tonnes
.. ten scotts
.. MCI 0.025
. bunkerage
.. ten point one tonnes
.. range
... one parsec
.. endurance
... four weeks
Bridge
. six tonnes
.. MCI 0.5
. computer
.. bandwidth five
.. MCI 0.03
.. software
... library
... manoeuvre
... jump control one
.... MCI 0.1
. sensors
.. basic
... lidar
... radar
... dice modifier minus four
Weapons
. hardpoints
.. turret
. firmpoints
Craft
Systems
. fuel scoops
Accommodations
. staterooms
.. half
.. two tonnes
.. MCI 0.25
. common areas
.. none
Cargo
. ship's locker
. dry
.. 2.1625 tonnes
... compressed gas tank
. jump net
.. technological level ten
.. 0.65 tonnes
.. MCI 0.195
. collapsible fuel tank
.. 0.65 tonnes
.. MCI 0.000'325
Access
. airlocks
.. one free
.. two tonnes
. cargo hatch


MCI 12.575'325

Notes:
1. It's possible that a six tonne bridge might impose a minus one modifier on astronavigation calculations, but six tonnes is already overlarge for a fifty tonne spacecraft.
2. Jump drive is kicked into gear by the high efficiency battery.
3. Prior to jump, the jump net is ejaculated to the rear, and the fuel bladder is inflated to fill out sixty tonnes volume of gas.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby wbnc » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:31 am

Condottiere wrote:Starship: Torpedo Class, or Smallest Possible, Well, Cheapest Anyway

Hull
. 35 tonnes
. 12 points
. technological level nine
. self-sealing
. gravitated
. lightened hull
.. MCI 1.3125
. streamlined
.. MCI 0.2625
(snip)
MCI 12.575'325

Notes:
1. It's possible that a six tonne bridge might impose a minus one modifier on astronavigation calculations, but six tonnes is already overlarge for a fifty tonne spacecraft.
2. Jump drive is kicked into gear by the high efficiency battery.
3. Prior to jump, the jump net is ejaculated to the rear, and the fuel bladder is inflated to fill out sixty tonnes volume of gas.


Interesting way of getting around th hull size restriction of 100 tons..inflatable "dummy hull" of 65 tons and a jump net.

envisioning it looking like a large metal sphere with a network of energized nodes along its outer surface when ready to jump.

we shall dub this the SondereinsatzSpringenBoot- "Kugelfisch".
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby EldritchFire » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:14 am

I keep seeing people say ships under 100dT cannot have a jump drive, but for the life of me I can't find that stated in any of the books I have—not the core book, not HG, not the CSC, etc. The only restriction I can find is that a jump drive must be at least 5dT.

Is it just an artifact of a prior edition that people assume, or am I just missing where it's stated?
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Jeraa » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:49 am

EldritchFire wrote:I keep seeing people say ships under 100dT cannot have a jump drive, but for the life of me I can't find that stated in any of the books I have—not the core book, not HG, not the CSC, etc. The only restriction I can find is that a jump drive must be at least 5dT.

Is it just an artifact of a prior edition that people assume, or am I just missing where it's stated?
From a rules standpoint, any size ship can mount a jump drive. From a setting standpoint, Third Imperium ships are required to be at least 100 tons to mount a jump drive.

THe only text that even implies this is on page 4 of High Guard, with the definition of small craft. I believe the core rulebook has a similiar entry.
Small Craft: A spacecraft of less than 100 tons. Small craft are incapable of jumping to other star systems.
The book says such definitions are drawn from the Third Imperium. And do note that the definition given does not actually say small craft can't mount jump drives - it says they can't jump to another system. Nothing about in-system jumps.

And the minimum jump drive size is 10 tons, not 5. You can get it down to 7 tons with the rules for advanced technology, however.
Last edited by Jeraa on Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
AndrewW
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby AndrewW » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:50 am

EldritchFire wrote:Is it just an artifact of a prior edition that people assume, or am I just missing where it's stated?
OTU limitation, applies to the Third Imperium setting.
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:55 am

The smallest starship is probably thirty tonnes, but you'd need high technology variant engines, including a seven tonne jump drive.

The smallest default jump drive is ten tonnes, but higher technology levels can shrink this.

The hard hundred tonne ruling has supposedly come from high above, probably to remove the possibility of jump torpedoes, and has been reiterated again somewhere between Tee Five and Mongoose Second.
wbnc
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby wbnc » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:27 am

Condottiere wrote:The smallest starship is probably thirty tonnes, but you'd need high technology variant engines, including a seven tonne jump drive.

The smallest default jump drive is ten tonnes, but higher technology levels can shrink this.

The hard hundred tonne ruling has supposedly come from high above, probably to remove the possibility of jump torpedoes, and has been reiterated again somewhere between Tee Five and Mongoose Second.
Jup capable small craft are perfectly acceptable In noncanon applications.you just can't use them in a strict 3I setting. and you do not want to see the 100 ton Interstellar Jump Missiles i have scared the Bejeezus out of my players with :D...

hard to stop a craft at Thrust 12 with heavy armor and 10DT warhead that is basically a chunk of nickel-iron moving at nearly 100K Kph... it mocks your puny pulse lasers.I restrained myself from making one up at sub 100 tons.

A 50-ton stealth coated jump drone that can go into close combat with an intercepting vessel to make itself an even harder target to hit, armed with a particle barbette, and carrying with a nuclear mine in its cargo hold as a warhead...seemed obscene. a dozen of them would be completely perverse.

I have a collection of 50-60-75 ton jump craft. I sort of ignored the 100 ton limit for my own use. 30 tons is doable but has very little room for more than a single stateroom and a pilot. at 50 tons you get a jump craft and can carry 50 tons of external cargo using a 10ton drive. without cargo its jump3 base due to ten-ton J-drive limit giving it enough exra horsepower to up max out a TL 12 jump limit.

but now that I think about it a 50 ton jump tug carrying 50 tons of external cargo is in fact a 100 ton vessel. making it a legit vessel since external cargo figures into jump drive and thrust calculations. so basically all you need is a bridge, a single barracks for the pilot, and the required powerplant, m-Drive, and J-Drive. Of course to make it Kosher for canon works you can't jump without the external cargo in place. but a 50-Dton jump fighter that can carry as much cargo as a small trader ...that's an attractive one man profit making machine.

a scarier option is to make the 50 ton "cargo" another 50 ton fighter. jump tug and strike fighter combo
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 am

That part was obvious once you thought exactly how you configured a dispersed structure.

The problem was getting a smaller actual hull, to manoeuvre in real space; the fuel bladder idea has been floating around , with a lot of different designers coming onto the idea independently, but there was no way to guarantee it's integrity in hyperspace.

That's where the jumpnet came in.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby EldritchFire » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:02 am

Jeraa wrote:
EldritchFire wrote:I keep seeing people say ships under 100dT cannot have a jump drive, but for the life of me I can't find that stated in any of the books I have—not the core book, not HG, not the CSC, etc. The only restriction I can find is that a jump drive must be at least 5dT.

Is it just an artifact of a prior edition that people assume, or am I just missing where it's stated?
From a rules standpoint, any size ship can mount a jump drive. From a setting standpoint, Third Imperium ships are required to be at least 100 tons to mount a jump drive.

THe only text that even implies this is on page 4 of High Guard, with the definition of small craft. I believe the core rulebook has a similiar entry.
Small Craft: A spacecraft of less than 100 tons. Small craft are incapable of jumping to other star systems.
The book says such definitions are drawn from the Third Imperium. And do note that the definition given does not actually say small craft can't mount jump drives - it says they can't jump to another system. Nothing about in-system jumps.

And the minimum jump drive size is 10 tons, not 5. You can get it down to 7 tons with the rules for advanced technology, however.
It's a setting thing, then, cool.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby wbnc » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:53 am

[quote="EldritchFire"}

It's a setting thing, then, cool.[/quote]

yep if you want Jump craft in your personal setting its cool. the rules do not preclude wedging a jump drive into the smallest hull you can fit it into, it simply sets a minimum size for the J-drive.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:37 am

The actual rule has always been clear: Small craft can't jump. Small craft are craft with a basic hull less than 100 dT. The hull does not have to be filled with anything but vacuum. A craft of 50 dT carrying 50 dT of external tanks or cargo is still a small craft and cannot jump.


The jump drive jumps a volume, not a mass. If we deliberately misunderstand the 100 dT rule to just be a volume there is no real need for any mass to fill out the 100 dT, we could just as well jump 100 dT of vacuum. In that case a small craft could spread out the jump net into space and jump together with the empty space around it, any inflatable bladders would be superfluous.

If we really want to play with words we could abuse breakaway hulls. Make a breakaway ship with a 30 dT section. That section is not a small craft, it is a part of a ship. Hence it is not forbidden to jump.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:22 pm

I rationalize it as requiring a certain volume to maintain stability, and adding it on to sub hundred tonnes is ballast.

Regarding which, what happens if the jump net deforms during the trip down the rabbit hole and changes the virtual volume? The inflated balloon is there to maintain a specific shape and volume.

And I recalculated the size of the smallest possible starship, it's twenty five tonnes, if you remove the bridge and give it a virtual crew.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby wbnc » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:42 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:The actual rule has always been clear: Small craft can't jump. Small craft are craft with a basic hull less than 100 dT. The hull does not have to be filled with anything but vacuum. A craft of 50 dT carrying 50 dT of external tanks or cargo is still a small craft and cannot jump.


The jump drive jumps a volume, not a mass. If we deliberately misunderstand the 100 dT rule to just be a volume there is no real need for any mass to fill out the 100 dT, we could just as well jump 100 dT of vacuum. In that case a small craft could spread out the jump net into space and jump together with the empty space around it, any inflatable bladders would be superfluous.

If we really want to play with words we could abuse breakaway hulls. Make a breakaway ship with a 30 dT section. That section is not a small craft, it is a part of a ship. Hence it is not forbidden to jump.
The wording can be finessed a number of ways The spirit of the rules is pretty simple.No Jump fighters, no jump shuttles no jump pods...If it's under 100Dt it can't jump...ad I can understand the rule...At least for 3I settings. If I decide to use sub-100 jump craft I just deselect the rule...and build jump craft with a straightforward same as a starship ruleset. it just works in a simpler manner than playing word/rules games :D
Condottiere wrote:I rationalize it as requiring a certain volume to maintain stability, and adding it on to sub hundred tonnes is ballast.

Regarding which, what happens if the jump net deforms during the trip down the rabbit hole and changes the virtual volume? The inflated balloon is there to maintain a specific shape and volume.

And I recalculated the size of the smallest possible starship, it's twenty five tonnes, if you remove the bridge and give it a virtual crew.
yeah, virtual crew reduces the need for both a bridge and a stateroom/barracks. It would be good for a distress drone, or courier pod....Or if you retain the Stateroom and have it run as an automated drone it would be a good personal transport.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby Condottiere » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:53 am

Most commercial flightpaths would be within one parsec or so of inhabited space going systems.

So a twenty five tonne emergency jump beacon would be viable if the starship misjumped or dropped out of hyperspace for any reason, but in a empty hex.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:39 am

wbnc wrote:If I decide to use sub-100 jump craft I just deselect the rule...and build jump craft with a straightforward same as a starship ruleset. it just works in a simpler manner than playing word/rules games :D
I agree, if you want small ships, just disregard the 100 dT rule, no need for fanciful "finessing" of the rules.
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Re: Ship Design Philosophy

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:45 am

Condottiere wrote:Regarding which, what happens if the jump net deforms during the trip down the rabbit hole and changes the virtual volume? The inflated balloon is there to maintain a specific shape and volume.
Either way it will go poof?
Marc W. Miller in JTAS24 wrote:REQUIRED ITEMS
...
Strong Hull: The hull of a starship must not only be constructed to withstand normal space; it also must withstand the rigors of jump space...

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