General skill vs. Specialty skill

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
rust
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby rust » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:48 pm

Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote: WHEN we get around to designing laser weapons, wouldn't we DELIBERATELY make them operate similar to a conventional slug thrower? Not saying the internals are the same, but it would look basically like a rifle and you would hold, shoot and aim it like a rifle.
Exactly. China and Russia have developed experimental laser weapons,
and they do indeed look very much like conventional rifles.
Egil Skallagrimsson
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:25 pm

Nerhesi wrote:Youve shot laser and powder weapons? Cool! :roll: :roll: :roll: I also see no real world data - just your opinion, like everyone elses.

Anyways; Ive been to several gun ranges with many friends. We have shot everything from 9mm glocks (Several variants) to revolvers, RPK-74, MP5s, AR10, M16s, AK47s and Sig 552. Also a variety of shot-guns.

The basics are all the same and can be taught in under 15 minutes - so lets not BS any more. Some sights vary, performance varies, preference varies, hell everything varies - but that is the key. It varies. Just like a laser rifle would be an AR10 with no recoil and shitload less noise.

Aim down sights. Fire. Thanks for coming out. Lets not kid ourselves about much difference between a pistol and a rifle when it comes to "how to use" and "Basics".
Exactly! You are clearly someone who knows what they are talking about. :D

Thank you for having the patience to explain it all (again!) to F33.

Egil
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:36 pm

JP42 wrote: I suspect the earliest models would do exactly this - it would play upon the familiar feel of pistol and rifle to make the transition easier. But after they'd been accepted? There's no need for a stock on a laser rifle as there's no need to cinch it up into your shoulder to account for the recoil. Depending on how the technology works, there might not be a need for a long barrel - no need to control the direction of a physical round, and no need for rifling. Other needs would become paramount. Perhaps placement of collimating mirrors, or the size of the power pack providing the juice. Second or third generation laser weapons might look slightly different from modern slug throwers, but fourth and then on would likely look far less so.
Very interesting, and hard to predict, if laser rifles can be made shorter than modern rifles, then perhaps we will start to see some interesting shapes in weapons. The other thing to think about is the weight, the stock is not just there to transmit recoil to the shoulder, the point of contact with the body also makes a rifle easier to support and aim, holding a rifle by the pistol grip, extending it the arm, and then trying to hold it steady may be a useful exercise, but you are not going to be able to maintain any kind of aim. But then, perhaps second or third generation laser rifles could be worn as a kind of arm harness, if the length can be kept short.

Of course, as you point out, they won't need rifling, so we should probably just be calling them "laser guns".

Will we find out in our lifetimes?

Egil
Last edited by Egil Skallagrimsson on Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:49 pm

hdan wrote:Remember also that "Gun Combat" includes weapon maintenance. Knowing how to clean a slug thrower probably won't help you maintaining an energy weapon, aside from the very rough "these things often screw together like this" type activities.
I could see personal laser weapons not requiring any cleaning, except perhaps wiping the "muzzle" over. No moving parts, no carbon, no need for gun oil, would have to be made robust enough for practical use, and one way of doing that would be to ensure the mirrors etc are factory sealed. Basically, when it breaks, you have to buy a new one.

Egil
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:51 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:It's a game where the mechanics allow a character with experience using a fully automatic assault rifle with adjustable sights on a world with low gravity, thin atmosphere, and little wind to be used with the SAME SKILL LEVEL as a ball and powder musket on a high gravity, dense atmosphere, high wind world. If one can accept this, I can't see the issue with a character with a high skill level with a slug rifle skill having laser rifle skill AT JUST THE MINIMUM SKILL LEVEL (level 0 only).

Someone here who claims to have real world powder weapons skill arguing their slug weapon skill somehow gives them the knowledge to judge it's ability to transfer to laser weapons, a skill they never were trained on, only proves that the skill is transferable - otherwise how could they judge the compatibility of a weapon they have absolutely no skill in?
Brilliant post :lol: :lol:

Apologies for getting carried away in all these replies, I can never work out how to cut and paste from other posts on this system (my computer skills are definitely of the "no skill, take a -3 penalty type)

Egil
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby hdan » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:56 pm

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:I could see personal laser weapons not requiring any cleaning, except perhaps wiping the "muzzle" over. No moving parts, no carbon, no need for gun oil, would have to be made robust enough for practical use, and one way of doing that would be to ensure the mirrors etc are factory sealed. Basically, when it breaks, you have to buy a new one.
Plausible. Routine after-use cleaning and maintenance might not be an issue at all, unless it's one of those chemically powered lasers. (Some ideas for laser weapons that don't require batteries include having "rounds" that are chemically pumped laser cores. But that brings back moving parts an a potential need for cleaning.)

Nanomaterial surfaces (not "smart nanobots", normal chemistry-type nanotech) could even make it unnecessary to wipe dirt off the thing.
/hdan
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby JP42 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:Very interesting, and hard to predict, if laser rifles can be made shorter than modern rifles, then perhaps we will start to see some interesting shapes in weapons. The other thing to think about is the weight, the stock is not just there to transmit recoil to the shoulder, the point of contact with the body also makes a rifle easier to support and aim, holding a rifle by the pistol grip, extending it the arm, and then trying to hold it steady may be a useful exercise, but you are not going to be able to maintain any kind of aim. But then, perhaps second or third generation laser rifles could be worn as a kind of arm harness, if the length can be kept short.

Of course, as you point out, they won't need rifling, so we should probably just be calling them "laser guns".

Will we find out in our lifetimes?
I don't recall where I read it, but I do remember an assertion that far better than a long arm for aiming would be something that you just pointed with the tip of your finger for. If the actual source of the laser could be made small enough to just run alongside your index finger, it might be the ultimate replacement for laser pistol weapons. For longer ranged weapons, I suspect we'll see an upsurge in gyrostabilization gear to go along with them, and they might be more like the shoulder-mounted weapon used in Predator than a traditional long arm.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby dragoner » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:17 pm

IMTU, with the battlefield HUD helmet becoming standard issue, aiming with iron sights or such becomes redundant. Though one thing to think about with projectile weapons, is that firing off center in zero g (such as from the shoulder), will cause the firer to rotate, whereas firing from center of mass will be more easily corrected.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:15 am

JP42 wrote:
Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:Very interesting, and hard to predict, if laser rifles can be made shorter than modern rifles, then perhaps we will start to see some interesting shapes in weapons. The other thing to think about is the weight, the stock is not just there to transmit recoil to the shoulder, the point of contact with the body also makes a rifle easier to support and aim, holding a rifle by the pistol grip, extending it the arm, and then trying to hold it steady may be a useful exercise, but you are not going to be able to maintain any kind of aim. But then, perhaps second or third generation laser rifles could be worn as a kind of arm harness, if the length can be kept short.

Of course, as you point out, they won't need rifling, so we should probably just be calling them "laser guns".

Will we find out in our lifetimes?
I don't recall where I read it, but I do remember an assertion that far better than a long arm for aiming would be something that you just pointed with the tip of your finger for. If the actual source of the laser could be made small enough to just run alongside your index finger, it might be the ultimate replacement for laser pistol weapons. For longer ranged weapons, I suspect we'll see an upsurge in gyrostabilization gear to go along with them, and they might be more like the shoulder-mounted weapon used in Predator than a traditional long arm.
Yes, "pointing" is basically how people normally shoot with pistols and shotguns, the reflex is usually a lot more important than aiming. Of course, the ranges we used pistols and shotguns at are relatively short, at longer ranges with a rifle different techniques are needed, partly because of the shape and weight of the rifle. If technology can, one day, allow us to simply point at longer ranges then I think we will see what you suggest. Thinking about weight, Trav assumes that a power pack will be connected to a fairly heavy laser "gun", but what if the power pack and gun could be all part of one block, carried in a back pack, the firer basically points a "wand", which is connected by "super fibre-optic" cable to the back pack, or has the Predator mount you suggested.

Of course, that all depends on the technology...

Egil
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:19 am

dragoner wrote:one thing to think about with projectile weapons, is that firing off center in zero g (such as from the shoulder), will cause the firer to rotate, whereas firing from center of mass will be more easily corrected.
Which might be a major drive, in the end, to develop recoilless laser weapons, to stop expensively trained and equipped starship troopers firing slug weapons once, and then floating off for ever.

Egil
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