General skill vs. Specialty skill

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ShawnDriscoll
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General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:24 am

I get it now. Gun Combat 0 means you can use any gun without a DM penalty. It could also be thought of as:

Gun Combat(Slug Rifle) 0
Gun Combat(Slug Pistol) 0
Gun Combat(Shotgun) 0
Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0
Gun Combat(Energy Pistol) 0


There is no Gun Combat 1 though. The 1 goes to one of the specialty skills instead. In theory, Gun Combat 1 would be possible if all five specialty skills equaled 1.

Some of my characters have Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0, but do not have any general skill in Gun Combat. So they still suffer a -3 DM when using a gun other than an Energy Rifle.

In the Vargr book, I think I saw Science 1 for a career. I panicked at first (17 science skills all at level 1??!!!). But Science is like Mechanic, and not tied to any specialty skills.

ADDED:
"Gain Gun Combat 1" and "Gain Gun Combat(Any) 1" mean the same thing.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby hdan » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:34 am

That's my understanding of it, as well.
/hdan
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:14 am

Sure enough, I see in the Mongoose Core Rulebook that a colonist can get Gun Combat 1 which would mean they would have a level of 1 in all gun skills. Army doesn't have that good of training. So I'll change it to Gun Combat(Any) 1.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby CosmicGamer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:02 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Some of my characters have Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0, but do not have any general skill in Gun Combat. So they still suffer a -3 DM when using a gun other than an Energy Rifle.
Could you please provide details of how a character obtained Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0.
ShawnDriscoll wrote:"Gain Gun Combat 1" and "Gain Gun Combat(Any) 1" mean the same thing.
Absolutely. Some typo/editing error/unclear text should not override the rules regarding specialties and skill levels.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:16 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:Could you please provide details of how a character obtained Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0.
Agent and Army basic training are two examples. Page 8 explains how Basic Training skills are gained at Level 0.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby DickTurpin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:18 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:In the Vargr book, I think I saw Science 1 for a career. I panicked at first (17 science skills all at level 1??!!!). But Science is like Mechanic, and not tied to any specialty skills.
Not at all. Science is four separate skills (Physical, Life, Social, and Space), each with from three to seven specializations. If you get Science 1 the character selects one of the Science skills, gains rank 1 in one specialization of that skill, and rank 0 in that skill's remaining specializations.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:26 pm

DickTurpin wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:In the Vargr book, I think I saw Science 1 for a career. I panicked at first (17 science skills all at level 1??!!!). But Science is like Mechanic, and not tied to any specialty skills.
Not at all. Science is four separate skills (Physical, Life, Social, and Space), each with from three to seven specializations. If you get Science 1 the character selects one of the Science skills, gains rank 1 in one specialization of that skill, and rank 0 in that skill's remaining specializations.
I disagree. Science is just Science. Life Science is Life Sciences(Biology), Life Sciences(Cybernetics), Life Sciences(Genetics), and Life Sciences(Psionicology).

I also don't agree that getting a skill in level 1 also gets the specialty skills for it. They are called specialty skills for a reason.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby CosmicGamer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:30 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
CosmicGamer wrote:Could you please provide details of how a character obtained Gun Combat(Energy Rifle) 0.
Agent and Army basic training are two examples. Page 8 explains how Basic Training skills are gained at Level 0.
It is Gun Combat (any) in my version, not Gun Combat(Energy Rifle).
CRB under Specialities wrote:When a character reaches level 1 in a skill, he can take a speciality in that skill.
and again in the sidebar on page 51
CRB wrote:A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities.
Since basic training only gives the skill at level 0, you do not choose the specialty yet and get Gun Combat 0 for basic training is my understanding.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:37 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:It is Gun Combat (any) in my version, not Gun Combat(Energy Rifle).
Seriously?

I'm afraid you have just become a foe of mine.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby DickTurpin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:06 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:I disagree. Science is just Science. Life Science is Life Sciences(Biology), Life Sciences(Cybernetics), Life Sciences(Genetics), and Life Sciences(Psionicology).

I also don't agree that getting a skill in level 1 also gets the specialty skills for it.
From the MgT Core Rule Book, page 6, under the Skills heading (last paragraph, left hand side). “Some skills have specialities – specialized forms of that skill. A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities.” - So a character must select a specialization when gaining rank 1 in a skill with specializations. The example following the rule does not clearly state that other specializations are gained at 0 because it has the character start at Engineering 0, so some misunderstanding is understandable.

In the Skills chapter, under the description of the Trade skill (p. 59) it states “Unlike other skills with specialities, levels in the Trade skill do not grant the ability to use other specialities at skill level 0.” That sounds like a pretty clear statement that earning level one in a skill (and selecting a specialization), does grant level zero in all other specializations of that skill, with any exceptions noted in the skill description.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:20 pm

DickTurpin wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:I disagree. Science is just Science. Life Science is Life Sciences(Biology), Life Sciences(Cybernetics), Life Sciences(Genetics), and Life Sciences(Psionicology).

I also don't agree that getting a skill in level 1 also gets the specialty skills for it.
From the MgT Core Rule Book, page 6, under the Skills heading (last paragraph, left hand side). “Some skills have specialities – specialized forms of that skill. A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities.” - So a character must select a specialization when gaining rank 1 in a skill with specializations. The example following the rule does not clearly state that other specializations are gained at 0 because it has the character start at Engineering 0, so some misunderstanding is understandable.

In the Skills chapter, under the description of the Trade skill (p. 59) it states “Unlike other skills with specialities, levels in the Trade skill do not grant the ability to use other specialities at skill level 0.” That sounds like a pretty clear statement that earning level one in a skill (and selecting a specialization), does grant level zero in all other specializations of that skill, with any exceptions noted in the skill description.
What they mean there on page 51 is that Trade and Trade(Specialty) are two different skills. Trade is having the concept of what store in your neighborhood has the best prices. Trade(Specialty) is for those that have a specialty in a trade. They are a miner, or a plastics or robotics manufacturer. They have their own business practically, and understand blue-collar work.

The deal with grabbing up all specialty skills when a generic one is taken, only works at Level 0. Pilot 0 will get you Level 0 for the three specialties. Level 1 will force you to pick one of the three to assign Level 1 to. They don't all become Level 1. Otherwise, there's no point to having any specialties, if they're all going up the same Level at once all the time.

(Any) means pick a specialty. It doesn't mean you get to level-up all of them. It would say (All) in that case. Who here has a character sheet on them that has all five Gun Combat skills listed as Level 4? No one. Because they know it's not right. But they will still write "Gun Combat(Any) 4 on their character sheet, in hopes that a referee (still learning the game) doesn't catch it right away.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby DickTurpin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:34 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
DickTurpin wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:I disagree. Science is just Science. Life Science is Life Sciences(Biology), Life Sciences(Cybernetics), Life Sciences(Genetics), and Life Sciences(Psionicology).

I also don't agree that getting a skill in level 1 also gets the specialty skills for it.
From the MgT Core Rule Book, page 6, under the Skills heading (last paragraph, left hand side). “Some skills have specialities – specialized forms of that skill. A character picks a speciality when he gains level 1 in a skill with specialities.” - So a character must select a specialization when gaining rank 1 in a skill with specializations. The example following the rule does not clearly state that other specializations are gained at 0 because it has the character start at Engineering 0, so some misunderstanding is understandable.

In the Skills chapter, under the description of the Trade skill (p. 59) it states “Unlike other skills with specialities, levels in the Trade skill do not grant the ability to use other specialities at skill level 0.” That sounds like a pretty clear statement that earning level one in a skill (and selecting a specialization), does grant level zero in all other specializations of that skill, with any exceptions noted in the skill description.
What they mean there on page 51 is that Trade and Trade(Specialty) are two different skills. Trade is having the concept of what store in your neighborhood has the best prices. Trade(Specialty) is for those that have a specialty in a trade. They are a miner, or a plastics or robotics manufacturer. They have their own business practically, and understand blue-collar work.

The deal with grabbing up all specialty skills when a generic one is taken, only works at Level 0. Pilot 0 will get you Level 0 for the three specialties. Level 1 will force you to pick one of the three to assign Level 1 to. They don't all become Level 1. Otherwise, there's no point to having any specialties, if they're all going up the same Level at once all the time.

(Any) means pick a specialty. It doesn't mean you get to level-up all of them. It would say (All) in that case. Who here has a character sheet on them that has all five Gun Combat skills listed as Level 4? No one. Because they know it's not right. But they will still write "Gun Combat(Any) 4 on their character sheet, in hopes that a referee (still learning the game) doesn't catch it right away.
Wow, that demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of both the Trade skill and what I have been saying in this thread. There is no such thing as a Trade skill that helps you find bargains when shopping neighborhood stores. The Trade skills are all specialized, as you said, but they deal with earning a living. The only reason it was mentioned was to show that learning a skill with specializations gives access to all that skill's specializations at level 0. It seems that we have agreed on that point all along.

I never said it would even give you anything higher than a level 0 in other specializations, so you disagreeing with me made it seem like you disagreed that all specializations are learned when you first learn a skill. It's good to know we are actually in agreement on that issue.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby CosmicGamer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:36 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
CosmicGamer wrote:It is Gun Combat (any) in my version, not Gun Combat(Energy Rifle).
Seriously?

I'm afraid you have just become a foe of mine.
huh? I'm just telling you what my version of the pdf and book say. Do you think I'm not being truthful?

What do other people books and pdfs say for Gun combat under Army and Agent?
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Wil Mireu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:16 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:
CosmicGamer wrote:It is Gun Combat (any) in my version, not Gun Combat(Energy Rifle).
Seriously?

I'm afraid you have just become a foe of mine.
huh? I'm just telling you what my version of the pdf and book say. Do you think I'm not being truthful?

What do other people books and pdfs say for Gun combat under Army and Agent?
page 8 of my Traveller Corebook PDF says:
Basic Training: For your first career only, you get all the skills listed in the Service Skills table at Level 0 as your basic training. For any subsequent careers, you may pick any one skill listed in the Service Skills table at Level 0 as your basic training.
Page 10: Agent has "Gun Combat (any)" in its Service Skills.
Page 12: Army has "Gun Combat (any)" in its Service Skills, but has "Gun Combat (Slug Rifle or Energy Rifle) 1" as its Rank 0 NCO skill.

No level is stated for Gun Combat (any) in the Service Skills tables.

Also on page 8 it says this under "Skills and Training":
Skills can be listed with or without an associated level. If no rank is listed, then you gain that skill at Level 1 if you do not have it already, or increases its level by one if you are already trained in that field. If a rank is listed, then you gain the skill at that level as long as it is better than your current level in that skill.
That actually seems to contradict the "Basic Training" section that follows it - I think what it should do is list all the Basic Training skills in the tables specifically as "0", then say "on subsequent careers you can pick one skill from there at level 0". That makes it clearer that you can never get a Basic Training skill at a level above 0 - you can only do that with skills in the other tables.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby CosmicGamer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:55 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:No level is stated for Gun Combat (any) in the Service Skills tables.
Wil Mireu wrote:I think what it should do is list all the Basic Training skills in the tables specifically as "0"
I may be misunderstanding, but do you think the Service Skills table is only for basic training?

I think the service skills table can be used whenever the character is allowed a skill roll during the career:
CRB pg 8 wrote:Each career has four or five skill tables associated with it – Personal Development, Service Skills, Specialist Skills (divided into three subtables corresponding to assignments) and Advanced Education. In each term you spend in a career, pick one
of these tables
If it is used for Basic Training level 0 skills and typical skill rolls, it wouldn't be good to have skill levels listed in this table. This does highlight a problem
A) If the skill is listed as Gun Combat without the (any) people might think that the Gun Combat skill can keep incrementing to level 2, 3 and so on as it is gained instead of picking a specialty to add levels to
or
B) If the skill is listed as Gun Combat (any) people might think that during basic training a specialty is selected at level 0 when it is the "parent skill" (my term) that should be level 0.

So either way I can see how it leads to misinterpretation.
Wil Mireu wrote:Page 12: Army has "Gun Combat (any)" in its Service Skills, but has "Gun Combat (Slug Rifle or Energy Rifle) 1" as its Rank 0 NCO skill.
Which is a Rank skill and not a basic training skill. So for Army. You get Gun combat L0 from the service table as basic training skill. A new recruit will also get a Rank skill of Gun Combat (Slug Rifle) L1 or Gun Combat (Energy Rifle) L1.

Anyways, all this is my interpretation of the rules but I'm not the greatest at English so I could be wrong.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Wil Mireu » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:49 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:I think the service skills table can be used whenever the character is allowed a skill roll during the career
Oops, yeah - I think you're right. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:11 am

DickTurpin wrote:Wow, that demonstrates a huge misunderstanding of both the Trade skill and what I have been saying in this thread. There is no such thing as a Trade skill that helps you find bargains when shopping neighborhood stores. The Trade skills are all specialized, as you said, but they deal with earning a living. The only reason it was mentioned was to show that learning a skill with specializations gives access to all that skill's specializations at level 0. It seems that we have agreed on that point all along.

I never said it would even give you anything higher than a level 0 in other specializations, so you disagreeing with me made it seem like you disagreed that all specializations are learned when you first learn a skill. It's good to know we are actually in agreement on that issue.
I'm looking at Trade again in the book... hang on... (I been posting in so many forums about this topic lately, maybe I cross connected wires somewhere). Ok, Trade 0 is not the same skill type as Trade(specialty). It's not even a lower skill version of Trade(specialty).

So Trade 0 does not auto-get you Trade(All) 0. Trade 0 means you are able to clean toilets, flip burgers. You've had a part-time job here and there. Trade 1 means you can live on your own. Trade 2 means you're a self-employed handyman. You do your own buying/selling (for parts/labor). Not investing/loaning, which is for Broker. Trade is not wallstreet. But Broker is. Trade is not swap meets either. It's not retail work. Broker is. Trade is not a merchant thing.

Trade(Any) 0 means you work in a specific trade, guild, union, etc. You're like a contractor. Higher-up Trade skill levels get you more control of the everyday workings of your factory. You may be a ship armor supplier or a jump drive manufacturer at level 4+.
Wil Mireu wrote:That actually seems to contradict the "Basic Training" section that follows it - I think what it should do is list all the Basic Training skills in the tables specifically as "0", then say "on subsequent careers you can pick one skill from there at level 0". That makes it clearer that you can never get a Basic Training skill at a level above 0 - you can only do that with skills in the other tables.
First career: Grab all the Service Skills at Level 0 for Basic Training
Next Career: Grab only one of the Service Skills at Level 0 for Basic Training

When rolling for skills during a career (not Basic Training), you can pick the Service Skills Table for your roll and grab up that skill at Level 1 if you don't have it already. Otherwise, it's gained at Level 2 or whatever.

Getting a Gun Combat(Any) during Boot Camp is not the same as getting Gun Combat 0. It would be listed as simply Gun Combat if that were the case. No one gets -3 DM removed from all their guns because they went to Boot Camp. That's the Min/Max brain talking.

ADDED:
I'm looking at character sheets I've made in the past. I mostly see Trade 0. I'll take it as meaning the character is a newbie when it comes to working at any job. I don't have any Trade 1 characters. Only the specialties have a Level of 1 or higher.

This morning I started getting rid of the random generic skills from Traveller. Just the specialty skills are acquired. I'm swapping out the background skills with specialty ones.

How do people treat Pilot 0? I'm getting rid of it. These generic Level 0 skills are just legacy code from Classic Traveller anyway (Min/Max players will try to grab up any and all of such skills, in addition to specialty skills). It just sounds dumb if a character says that they went to Space Camp for the summer and gained Pilot 0. So they can now pilot a capital ship without suffering a -3 DM. Mongoose Traveller is a great game for playing with just generic skills or with just specialty skills. But not both.
Last edited by ShawnDriscoll on Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:41 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Sure enough, I see in the Mongoose Core Rulebook that a colonist can get Gun Combat 1 which would mean they would have a level of 1 in all gun skills. Army doesn't have that good of training. So I'll change it to Gun Combat(Any) 1.
No, this indicates a choice of gun combat specialism, the colonist picks one gun combat at 1, say "Gun combat, shotgun, 1", and by default picks up all the rest of the gun combats at 0.

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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:49 am

Wil Mireu wrote: That actually seems to contradict the "Basic Training" section that follows it - I think what it should do is list all the Basic Training skills in the tables specifically as "0", then say "on subsequent careers you can pick one skill from there at level 0". That makes it clearer that you can never get a Basic Training skill at a level above 0 - you can only do that with skills in the other tables.
Remember that the basic training table can also be used later on a one of the options when rolling for skills gained through terms served and through promotions. For this reason it would be misleading to list the skills on the basic training table as 0, for if, that table is used later on in generating a character, a 0 would imply that the skill cannot be increased further.

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Re: General skill vs. Specialty skill

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:00 am

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:Sure enough, I see in the Mongoose Core Rulebook that a colonist can get Gun Combat 1 which would mean they would have a level of 1 in all gun skills. Army doesn't have that good of training. So I'll change it to Gun Combat(Any) 1.
No, this indicates a choice of gun combat specialism, the colonist picks one gun combat at 1, say "Gun combat, shotgun, 1", and by default picks up all the rest of the gun combats at 0.

Egil
If you say so. I'm removing the ambiguities (aka old legacy skills that have ties with Classic Traveller which were updated by Mongoose specialty skills) from the skill list. They don't show up very often in the Mongoose Core Rulebook for the careers anyway.

Your reasoning would be that a Level 1 in science gets you Level 0 in all the rest. That is an obvious exploit in the game.

If a character gets Gun Combat 1, the player will want that character to have any gun they can steal, buy, or make and not suffer any -3 DM to use it.

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