Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

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Chas
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Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:00 pm

I was playing around with CT back when it first came out and for some reason now, ah, long decades later I got the sudden impulse to brush off a capital ship design I did then and see how it scrubbed up in a modern Traveller rule set. I ended up here.
So, the concept is a fast cruiser, Jump 6, with jump 3 fuel stored in drop tanks. I’m pleased to say this has stood the test of time. Mongoose is reasonably kind to drop tanks, along with the rule set still following the premises of the original High Guard. I’m sure it’s all well-trodden ground at this stage. Whatever, I’ve had blast getting all this together and dipping back into Traveller.
I’m presenting 3 ship builds based on this chassis for people’s consideration. I’d appreciate any comments you may have on which you think is the most viable and some of the pros and cons (and any slipups you may catch, heh) of the builds and mission functions of the craft. And please feel free to toss out any other general thoughts you might have on capital ships and combat design balance.
On the ships themselves, I’ve gone through differing phases of preferring one or the other. The 100kton battlecruiser does a solid job for a fleet that would want a fast response/intruder line-of-battle ship, which would also fulfill heavy cruiser roles in its down time, its equipment rig is constricted but adequate. The heavy cruiser is very nice, quite an optimum design. When fully kitted out it still has a tonnage to spare which can be tweaked to taste. In this case I’ve upped the ground assault capabilities. Expensive yes, but superb at all its roles. The 30kton ship I like, a lot. It can fulfill a multitude of roles including up to heavy cruiser missions in most fleets. It’s priced so that a fleet can have a wing of them to strike deep into enemy territory. A very tough nut to crack for its size. And it’s good for the rpg side as well. The kind of ship an intrepid up and coming commander would be given, or posted onto. The ship would be allowed more initiative, be given more high risk tasks, than the other two. A 50kton chassis I didn’t like, it ended up neither here nor there. I’ve poked about a bit at with a heavy frigate, a ship without a spinal mount, but the chassis hasn’t seemed to fit so far.
What I’m thinking of doing is taking one of these vessels and giving it a good polish. Perhaps to look to get it in the Traveller Writer thingy, deck plan production method to be considered. I’ll also work on the fluff and if things go well may do a short story on the first mission. Ho hum, let’s see how everything pans out in the wash.
P.S. you might be better reading the storyline section below first which has most of the chassis design directions in it. Yes. I know tl;dr ;)
P.P.S. There’s obviously a fair amount in the detail. My gunnery numbers are typically 1/5 for anything but particle turrets which I’ve done 1/10, though I’ve upped this where I’ve got space. The beam lasers in the Pazuzu are running at 1 gunner/2 turrets for example.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:00 pm

NOTE: the drop tanks are not one off. They stay with the ship. M drive and J drive have been calculated for the full tonnage including drop tanks. As has the fuel processing. See pg 44 of High Guard for the relevant rules if interested.

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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:01 pm

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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:01 pm

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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:01 pm

This is NOT necessarily Traveller ‘correct’. It’s a first draft that I’ll polish up and tighten up going forward.

***

A group of ancient executive level admirals and their aids, ship architects with engineering experts, tacticians, intelligence officers and accountants, made their way to the allotted halochairs for the presentation. There was a distinct air of casual official boredom. Today they would review a proposal for a frontier cruiser to replace the Azhanti High Lightning. A ship that was now well into its dotage, but its function marginal enough that no particular priority had yet been set on a new generation vessel to assume an equivalent role.
On the podium before them was a slight middle-aged pale man, his bronze metallic sheened hair fashionably swept away in a long tail on one side of his head, the other half bald and toned. He wore no uniform, a discrete badge on his monotone work suit indicated he was a member of the ship architects guild. There as a short, though significant, row of stars across the top of the guild emblem – symbols of the number of starships successfully commissioned from his designs.
This was Edigar Prolix. Of some minor renown in his own field, his chief claim to fame being a limited run of Emperor class battleships. Beautiful, effective vessels used for fleets close to the heart of the Empire, where handpicked semi-retired crews of unquestioned loyalty flew the flag in an elite reserve, close protection function. These ships had garnered universal praise from those that served in them, laying the foundation for Edigar to attempt a more radical capital ship.
It had taken all of Edigar’s hard won recognition, the calling in of every outstanding favour he was able to leverage, to get the new design on hand to even this preliminary review. There were rumors of something ‘experimental’ about the design, a dirty word in the military hierarchy. The indifferent attitudes of the reviewing committee now, before the ship had so much as appeared on the halographs, promised a perfunctory examination followed by a swift dismissal of the project, to be forever abandoned.
Edigar showed little of any concern that he might have had, beaming cheerfully at his audience as they settled down into grav chairs, pottering about activating whatever paraphernalia they had brought with them. A variety of supplemental displays glittered in the air, fast imaging headsets were donned, and finally there was a polite nod to begin from a much beribboned chest, a personage sat in the middle of the reviewing board, with rings denoting rank up to his sleeve elbows.
“Your Eminence,” Edigar bowed to the ribboned chest, “Greetings all. Today I have the pleasure to introduce to you a new concept in fast cruisers. A fast cruiser that will be able to fulfill a multitude of roles in any fleet. A fast cruiser that will…”
“Excuse me,” came an abrupt interruption from the personage. “Fast Cruiser? What fast cruiser? Have we come to the correct review meeting? The brief says, yes… right here… ‘Frontier Cruiser’.”
“Ah, Sir. Allow me to explain. F for Frontier Cruiser is of course also F for Fast. As Admiral Crighton has always said, we can’t be too careful with internal security. And if you will indulge me, I believe I can show just cause for the so far successful subterfuge.”
All heads turned to a hard eyed, elderly woman, who sat impassively ignoring the sudden attention.
“Carry on,” said the ribbon chest.
Edigar punched in the command to active the halogram presentation in front of each person. As the room lights dimmed slightly a message came through on Edigar’s ear implant messenger, “Fluff this and you’ll be designing ore barges for the rest of your short career.”
Looking up at his audience Edigar saw the grey-haired woman now had one hand over her mouth while thoughtfully considering the hologram before her.
Edigar with a wave his hand through the images spinning in the air in front of him brought forth the first point he wish to highlight and began.
“Where were we… yes, a fast cruiser of tremendous potential. What you see before you ladies and gentlemen is a cruiser with drop tanks. There is nothing experimental about this design. It is simply a version of the commonly employed jump fuel storage option that you are all familiar with. The chassis is a jump six capable ship, with jump three fuel reserves onboard, along with four weeks of power plant fuel. The drop tank holds double this amount giving a total fuel reserve of a single six parsec jump and eight weeks of power plant fuel. The jump and maneuver drives are built to move the entire vessel including drop tanks at our most advanced jump and maneuver technology capabilities. The onboard fuel processors can process the entire jump six fuel load in one day.”
“There have been many lengthy discussions on the pros and cons of drop tank usage. I append some of the salient points. They key issue I would like to state now is that the droptanks are not expected to be fitted while in combat. Our studies indicate that for the significant majority of combat situations the droptanks can be successfully disengaged or stashed. Yes, there will be occasions where the droptanks are destroyed, however we consider that loss acceptable given the performance and mission capability that the drop tanks provide.”
“Huh? Sorry what was that? Yes. Yes. The drop tanks can be remounted in space, it takes one tug and a salvage drone to do this. Even if the drop tanks have been explosively disengaged, they can be remounted and reused. If they are destroyed, despite this chassis being a high technology design, make-do tanks can be built at almost any ship yard.”
Edigar paused for a moment to be sure he had his audience’s full attention.
“Vessels based on this chassis are mission capable of the following roles.”
“Interdiction as a deep intruder, penetrating further into hostile territory than any previous ship was capable of.”
“Interception. Able to react to hostile intrusion faster than any existing vessel.”
“Search and destroy.”
“Hit and run.”
“A hunter-seeker able to bring the enemy to battle at a time and location to advantage.”
“While still fulfilling the standard mission requirements of their respective classes.”
“I present for you today three ship types based on this drop tank chassis. The Rakasha, a hundred thousand ton battle cruise, the Daemon, a seventy-eight thousand ton heavy cruiser, and the Raptor, a thirty thousand ton cruiser.”
“Each of these vessels are heavily armored, and heavily gunned, to the best of our current technological abilities. Yes, there are only limited shipyards that can accommodate them. Yes, they have limited ammunition based weaponry like torpedoes. But they are designed for extended independent operations. Each vessel outlined has a minimum of four months cargo space for maintenance supplies.”
There were no more disinterested mutterings between the review committee members, every hand was now spinning hologram three dimensional structures, pulling down specification lists, mixing and matching design options.
“Not exactly stinting ourselves are we?” came a dry comment from an older woman also sporting the same guild emblem as Edigar.
“The technology level and component budgeting are the direct opposite to Madame Solard’s excellent cost performance build concepts.”
“Proven build concepts,” continued Madame Solard in the same acerbic tone.
Edigar held up his hand. “If you will allow me, I will return to the justification of the expenditure. Yes they are costly.” Indeed there were several almost disbelieving frowns in reaction to the sticker price. “I believe I can demonstrate the chassis value.”
“Perhaps you could start with a relative comparison with the Planet heavy cruiser,” came Admiral Crighton’s suggestion.
“Hmmm… well, ah, ignoring some of the creative accounting that was involved with the Planet…”
There were a few wry smiles. The Planet was infamous for even in this day and age of somehow passing a preconstruction quantity survey that bore no relationship to its actual cost.
“There is an approximate mark up of seven or eight thousand megacredits ton for ton. However even given the budget issues with the power plant and bridge of the Planet, there is a fundamental flaw with the build. For the sake of a thousand tons added to its displacement the Planet cannot survive a single section hit from an advanced D class meson spinal gun. Which essentially rules it out of a place in an equivalent technology line of battle. The latest paradigms for vessel size, battle simulations and battle examples all bear this out. Should the enemy possess advanced Class D spinal meson weapons then a line of battle vessel should be at an absolute minimum seventy six thousand tons, and ideally more to allow for eventual barrage fire section damage.”
There were nods around the room. It was a fundamental of space warfare, in the exorbitant bloody affairs that were fleet battles if your vessels were not capable of taking one hit from a spinal weapon and replying in kind before destruction against an equivalent enemy who could, you were doomed. At best you could gain a Pyric victory, by overwhelming the enemy by sheer numbers, accepting a loss of life and material far in excess of whatever the enemy would suffer. The desperate tactical occasions that called for such a sacrifice were few and far between. Every ship captain had standing orders to retreat in the face of such odds without direct orders to the contrary.
“Let me offer another comparison,” continued Edigar. “Please refer to the Rakasha battle cruiser. Our combat encounter programs indicate a dominate victory of six Rakasha’s versus three Hive Kastile two point two hundred k dreadnoughts, in a majority of any combat circumstances.”
There was now intensely focused analysis of the presentation materials by every person in the room. The latest Hive dreadnoughts were, in polite terms, a headache. Any two would certainly destroy a Tigress superdreadnought. To guarantee a dominant victory against a typical pod of three of the Hive dreadnoughts by existing battleships such as the Plankwell meant a losing proposition by weight and cost committed to a war front. No ship currently designed could do it, as the Hivers had no doubt calculated. It was where the cost performance efficacy of using suboptimum technologies in a ship design broke down. Yes, you got more ships for your credit, able to spread your reach further out into the stars, vital for a vast sprawling galactic empire, but there would be times when space superiority combat would be needed. That is why current doctrine was for smaller battleships, and ultra-powerful tenders, able to deliver more big spinal weapons to the battle field.
“Please note I am not suggesting that this chassis become a mainstream design,” Edigar said. “It is to provide tactical and strategic opportunities because of its high technology superiority. To be approved on the basis it is capable of doing things that otherwise would not be possible. I ask you all gathered here, surely there is a need somewhere for a jump 6 capital ship?”
At the rear of the assemblage a man in a dark suit blinked, as if startled by a sudden idea. He stood up and came forward to whisper in the ribboned chest’s ear. Ribbon chest muttered an acknowledgement, and then ferociously began scanning through the specification lists once again.
“This vessel’s capabilities must be kept under the strictest security,” ribbon chest abruptly growled.
“Yes your Eminence. However, let me conclude by saying that according to our projections this vessel’s greatest value will be when the enemy is aware that such a ship is a reality. The potential threat of a long range jump 6 vessel will pose a danger impossible to ignore to star systems and trade routes hitherto beyond the reach of Imperial forces. Our foes will have to allot funds and resources to defenses far above and beyond what this chassis will take to construct. It could cause a critical diversion of strategic resources, at a minimum it would cause delays and reprioritizing.”
For the first time in the meeting, ribbon chest was grinning broadly. As if catching his Eminence’s thought a sycophant courtier seated close by exclaimed, “There’ll be consternation in planning boards across the Milky Way, M’Lord! Regardless of the number of ships actually commissioned.”
“I agree,” ribbon chest said with finality, giving Admiral Crighton a significant glance. “Now, which of these concepts should we select?”
A lengthy technical discussion followed before a consensus was reached. There was some debate about the purpose of torpedoes and missiles on the craft.
“We have neither the cargo space to carry nor a key mission requirement for torpedoes and missiles. The hardpoints allotted to these are for tactical options. To allow use of jumpbreaker missiles, EMP torpedoes and the like. Thus there is no basic change in the provision between the smallest and the largest design.”
“Sandcasters have had their day, but for the less well armored hull options they still have a place.”
Admiral Crighton raised a point about the 100kton chassis. “I’m not entirely sold on this. It is a battleship for fleet combat, and it’s not optimal as a space superiority vessel.
Edigar nodded acknowledging the remark. “If we consider it more of a fleet element it’s easily enough tweaked to have maximum armor, two to three months range may well be enough. I’ve proposed a tactical concept with regards this ship. To re-introduce the idea of a vanguard for an Imperial Fleet. Imagine a strong forward fleet element able to penetrate into enemy territory as fast as knowledge of the invasion is taking place. We could have a battlecruiser element eighteen parsecs behind the front lines before the enemy is aware they are under attack.
We also see another new tactical function. Its fast response ability allows it to provide what we have termed an ‘extended credible defense zone’. Sector governments can use a small Rakasha wing positioned behind the front lines, just as the Imperial forces are held as defense in depth. The key military threat sector governments face are cruiser raids, hamstringing trade, overwhelming under defended systems. For an enemy cruiser raids are a win-win proposition. They cause damage far in excess of a raiding vessel’s cost, and are likely to destroy an equal amount vessel tonnage if caught by other cruisers. The Rakashas can cause a twenty-four parsec sphere to become a cruiser no-fly zone. Cruiser raids become a different proposition when the enemy cruisers are faced with expected complete destruction, with little long damage likely to be inflicted in results. The only option available to the enemy is entire full fleet actions, whereupon our own fleet elements are called into action. I have a note as to which system locations we think could benefit from this approach.”
There was the typical bickering with the accountants, who for once found themselves on the losing side. For whatever reason, ribbon chest was steam rolling the process when finished ship selection, to the surprise and instant agreement by all and sundry to his wishes.
“Where else do you see use for a jump 6 capable ship, Edigar,” came a passing remark at the end of the meeting.
“A jump six supply and maintenance craft in the two or three hundred kiloton range, Admiral. A depot ship able to cater to a fleet’s needs, then able to return to a friendly system to resupply and catch up again to the fleet while it continues its task. Its cost justified by the fact its allowing a trillion credits of other ships to do more.”
“You’re not a fan of tenders?” came another question.
“Actually I am in the bigger picture, Ma’am. A jump six supercarrier though is not something I’d typically recommend, the mission set would be more limited than cruisers, being risk adverse. Your tender can be sitting idle for years waiting for a suitable mission task. The equivalent value cruisers are working every moment of every day of that time at different jobs, earning their keep.”
“I’ll take a dozen Pazuzu’s thanks,” quipped Admiral Crighton. “That’s what I call projecting Imperial power.”
“Make the first prototype available in half the normal time and you’ll get your wish,” calmly stated ribbon chest, totally serious.

***
The order came through for the first ship to be commissioned, accompanying the order was a directive to rush the design, and the extraordinary requirement to heat shield and provide stealth qualities to the vessel.
The vessel’s space going trials were held in total secrecy. As soon as the ship was deemed space worthy an elite crew and the still unregistered craft… vanished.
To this day the mission of the ship remains classified. That the captain was immediately promoted, and the mission chief admiral granted a peerage, the only whispers of success that came from the silent participants.
The reputation of the new ship became enthroned in space lore during the Ishalstag insurrection. The first wing of four ships, commanded by a Commodore who had declined flag rank in preference for the chance to stay in front line service with these ships, ensured that the incident would be nothing but a footnote in the history archives. “We caught them in complete disarray,” Commodore Larken noted. “Ships under repair, others refueling, their high guard with store ships in amongst it. As soon as their sensors detected us they requested terms of surrender. So much for the rebels of Ishalstag. Yes. Yes. They tried to promote me to a desk for that too.”

***

As a quick comment on the designs. The 100kt can get 15 armor with a bit of squeezing on carge etc., so that’s a pretty much straight design swap and option between that and other considerations. The 78kt heavy cruiser has still got a few hundreds of spare tons of cargo that can be further tweaked to taste, I'm upping the ground assault capabilities...
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:02 pm

Adventure Hook

The sensors of your ship have detected an unusual metal artifact orbiting a small moon next to a giant gas planet. As you approach to investigate you are given a warning shot across your bow by automated aircraft. You choose to ignore this, after all they must be defending something valuable. You defeat the automated aircraft, but the suicide drones that came whizzing out of the metal object were a nasty shock. Your vessel is heavily damaged before you finally get to discover just what they were guarding. It is effectively worthless.

And here comes Mummy.

In compensation for destruction of Imperial property you are ‘requested’ to undertake a mission for the Imperium. It is of course a) highly illegal and b) something the Imperial forces will never admit to having sponsored. You are naturally expendable in the bigger picture. Will you become a valuable tool of the Imperial forces to be secretly funded and equipped, or merely an embarrassment to be swept into the recycling vats?
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Yep. Okay, I'm done... :lol:
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby dragoner » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:48 pm

Very nice, thanks!
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:58 pm

Very nice. However, when you add the drop tanks that ADDS tonnage to the ship, so what does that do to the M-Drive performance? You need to recalculate the M-drive rating for the additional tonnage.

Overall, I like the idea and have always felt that Drop Tanks are an underutilzied concept in many Traveller designs.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:24 pm

Very neat.

I think the traditional traveller designation for such things is a "Strike" cruiser or battlecruiser (I think there's even been a "Strike Battleship" at one point).

You're quite correct; they are a strategically very useful unit; able to move from a reserve area 2-3 jumps behind friendly lines into an equivalent, supposedly secure, enemy area and wreak utter havoc - especially because you've armed the Rakasha with seriously big teeth in that rapid fire spinal.

The one thing that's probably not too useful is ground assault capability, but you haven't gone nuts on it, and the odd ortillery piece is good for keeping the groundside people honest whilst you blow up their orbital infrastructure.

Boarding craft are definitely useful, as are tugs, salvage craft and interface craft, giving you a good multimission capability. I'm less convinced re-entry capsules will ever be worth the effort, though; with only 50 capsules you can only put a reinforced platoon on target and with only one tube you won't be doing that in as much of a rush as you might like. Besides which, one-way drop equipment is better for full-blown invasions which ships like this won't be doing; if you're going to hit dirt you'd have brought the Assault Squadrons in.

Short of creating a dedicated strike assault ship with some large marinesicle freezers, you'll struggle to pack enough men through jump-6 to seriously inconvenience anything but another ship; the ortillery is a better bet.

Equally, the suicide drones seem an odd pick; essentially they are just long ranged, really smart torpedoes. If I wanted to open up more tactical options, though, some incapacitation drones never hurt. Unless you're the enemy, I guess.

Drop Tanks are an odd concept. Essentially they're one-way jump capability, which has issues for a warship in the same way Battle Riders do; if it all goes to buggery, you can't run away again, because even if you have the ability to scoop fuel, you've nowhere to put it (the tanks are blown off and separate before jump, otherwise they'd count towards jump volume)

The best use for them (military, at least) is probably as spearhead units - the 'first wave' arriving in system when other ships of a strike fleet, including the logistics element, is en route.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:56 pm

Thanks for the comments.

FYI the M drive and the jump drive are calculated WITH the full tonnage load including the droptanks. The droptanks are not one off, they go with the ships. Several rationales here. At (IIRC) T14 the drop tanks can be reused if they're blown off. So if the ships are detecting enemies at long range the cruisers get the option to drop the tanks and go into the fight, or flee. Or risk keeping the tanks on, very unlikely. The relative cost of the tanks themselves is minimal. But a heap of variant tactics can be used. The tanks can be stashed somewhere and returned to, etc, etc.

The stashing is part of the idea of the suicide drones. Check out the adventure hook. The automated attack craft and suicide drones can be left in 'sleep mode' with the drop tanks somewhere and if some inquisitive trader decides to snoop around and make a nuisance of themselves they'll get a nasty shock.

Appreciate the comment on the launch tubes and agree with the point. They're not expensive in tonnage though and these are just to help expand the ship capabilities. Just like subs today can land a seal/SAS team somewhere these cruisers have an elite strike force to undertake specialist missions. That is the whole point of the ground assault options. Ground assault is not a core role at all and could be skipped completely, but they are a useful compliment to a roving cruiser. I like having the extra role playing capability in the ships too. I'd hope to be able to allow players to have their crack assault teams to hop onboard for the ride sort of thing. I'll have another think about the mix here.

The Strike cruiser is specifically a ground assault vessel. These aren't. They're ships that often act totally independently of any other fleet element and as such will be able to use expanded mission capabilities.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby locarno24 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:25 am

I could be wrong, but I'm sure Assault squadrons are invasion barges. Strike squadrons are enhanced-jump-range ships used for system clearance and strategic attacks.

I'm pretty sure the "strike cruiser as a company transport" is a GW thing.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:06 am

locarno24 wrote:I could be wrong, but I'm sure Assault squadrons are invasion barges. Strike squadrons are enhanced-jump-range ships used for system clearance and strategic attacks.

I'm pretty sure the "strike cruiser as a company transport" is a GW thing.
Yeah, I could be colouring that assumption with my impressions of the first generation design of the Strike Cruiser which was pretty much for planetary bombardment/assault.

Anyhoo, the intention is the Fast Cruisers are for projecting space superiority military power over a distance, as opposed to short range jump and clobber :)
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby crazy_cat » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:40 pm

Chas wrote:....as opposed to short range jump and clobber :)
*ahem* Didn't you get the memo? Seems the civilians and bureaucrats back home don't so much like the term 'jump and clobber' so we are now referring to such operations as either 'arrive and supress' or 'sweep and clear' - are we all OK with that?
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby barnest2 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:24 pm

crazy_cat wrote:*ahem* Didn't you get the memo? Seems the civilians and bureaucrats back home don't so much like the term 'jump and clobber' so we are now referring to such operations as either 'arrive and supress' or 'sweep and clear' - are we all OK with that?
We can do better than that...
Long range peace reassurance operations
Strategic pacification missions
for instance...

Chas I find your designs... curious, but very interesting.
Abishai
With your heavy bays, why did you mix and match particle and meson? Is it to defeat the possibility of meson screens?

You only have 4 barrages of torpedoes. Powerful, yes, but is the space used really worth the amount of use they'll get? That's only 24 minutes of fire, compared to... 180 from your missiles. Are they really worth the space used?

Why UNREP equipment? Not that I'm not pleased to see it, but 400 tons/hour is very little. Is this for small craft aboard? Because I assumed that would be done aboard...

It seems to be suffering a little from mixed mission statements, especially with things like fighter craft aboard, but generally I like it.

The above also applies to the other two, but lets stick with this one to start with.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:28 pm

barnest2 wrote:
crazy_cat wrote:*ahem* Didn't you get the memo? Seems the civilians and bureaucrats back home don't so much like the term 'jump and clobber' so we are now referring to such operations as either 'arrive and supress' or 'sweep and clear' - are we all OK with that?
We can do better than that...
Long range peace reassurance operations
Strategic pacification missions
for instance...
I was heading in the same direction along with re-education of unruly Imperial citizens.
Chas I find your designs... curious, but very interesting.
Abishai
With your heavy bays, why did you mix and match particle and meson? Is it to defeat the possibility of meson screens?
Yes, and to provide options, better to do some damage than none, depending on what you are up against if it's 'big', and if they're small they'll both do damage regardless.
You only have 4 barrages of torpedoes. Powerful, yes, but is the space used really worth the amount of use they'll get? That's only 24 minutes of fire, compared to... 180 from your missiles. Are they really worth the space used?
The provide the tactical options like EMP torpedoes, Ortillery torpedoes, etc. They were never going to be even third tier armament for the ship so I didn't try to make them anything more than actually providing a few tubes at need. They are there for the odd occasion of the ship's captain going 'if only I had..."
Why UNREP equipment? Not that I'm not pleased to see it, but 400 tons/hour is very little. Is this for small craft aboard? Because I assumed that would be done aboard...
I like this and consider it an integral part of the design. If you check the cargo size of the ship it can get it's entire 4 months of maintenance supplies in 3 hours, typically it could be done in two. That is, a freighter could rendezvous with the ship at a special location on a long cruise, it could load up with the necessary maintenance material, and then carry on, without having to return to any major Starfleet base or otherwise.
It seems to be suffering a little from mixed mission statements, especially with things like fighter craft aboard, but generally I like it.
The above also applies to the other two, but lets stick with this one to start with.
A core role of cruisers is to be able to undertake missions independent of other fleet support. A few fighters to help the token assault forces is neither here nor there weight wise and have all sorts of uses e.g. escorting a VIP diplomat being shuttled to a meeting, nipping round the back of a moon to see what's there, etc. What actually surprises me in a lot of builds is many ships not having the equivalent of a retrieval boat or carrier support fighter able to help people/things stranded in space, I think these should be in any and every spaceship.
barnest2
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby barnest2 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:45 pm

Chas wrote:Yes, and to provide options, better to do some damage than none, depending on what you are up against if it's 'big', and if they're small they'll both do damage regardless.
I wont argue with that one. While personally I would stick to one type of main gun, they're only second tier to the spinal mount, so point conceded. Was only a minor quibble :)
The provide the tactical options like EMP torpedoes, Ortillery torpedoes, etc. They were never going to be even third tier armament for the ship so I didn't try to make them anything more than actually providing a few tubes at need. They are there for the odd occasion of the ship's captain going 'if only I had..."
Okay, considering the number of capabilities a set of torpedoes can give you, I'm not going to argue. However, it will make me questions the utility of the missile turrets as opposed to more PD or more torps :P
I like this and consider it an integral part of the design. If you check the cargo size of the ship it can get it's entire 4 months of maintenance supplies in 3 hours, typically it could be done in two. That is, a freighter could rendezvous with the ship at a special location on a long cruise, it could load up with the necessary maintenance material, and then carry on, without having to return to any major Starfleet base or otherwise.
Ah, but, why not simply mount the UNREP on the freighter and be done with it? That way you have more space on your warship. Using space on a fighting ship for things not devoted to fighting is a bad thing. :P You could lug a few more torps, etc etc. I know it's not much but it makes much more sense to put it on the freighter.
A core role of cruisers is to be able to undertake missions independent of other fleet support. A few fighters to help the token assault forces is neither here nor there weight wise and have all sorts of uses e.g. escorting a VIP diplomat being shuttled to a meeting, nipping round the back of a moon to see what's there, etc. What actually surprises me in a lot of builds is many ships not having the equivalent of a retrieval boat or carrier support fighter able to help people/things stranded in space, I think these should be in any and every spaceship.
Well... not going to argue with you here. They don't take a lot of room (though remember pilots, maintenance crews, ordnance and fuel also take space) but as with the torps, capabilities are good.
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby Chas » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:59 pm

barnest2 wrote:
The provide the tactical options like EMP torpedoes, Ortillery torpedoes, etc. They were never going to be even third tier armament for the ship so I didn't try to make them anything more than actually providing a few tubes at need. They are there for the odd occasion of the ship's captain going 'if only I had..."
Okay, considering the number of capabilities a set of torpedoes can give you, I'm not going to argue. However, it will make me questions the utility of the missile turrets as opposed to more PD or more torps :P
Well the bottom line is that even now the missles are only taking up half the weight of the torps in terms of cargo ammo space and this is only a bay and a half :( There just isn't much wriggle room at this point and I like the frag missile options vs fighters...
Ah, but, why not simply mount the UNREP on the freighter and be done with it? That way you have more space on your warship. Using space on a fighting ship for things not devoted to fighting is a bad thing. :P You could lug a few more torps, etc etc. I know it's not much but it makes much more sense to put it on the freighter.
Yes and no. You wouldn't need to have any sort of special freighter for this operation. Any old tramp from any system could be used to resupply the vessel which might have its uses. As you might have guessed I'm trying to build the designs for as much self-sufficiency as possible...

Edit: :idea: AND I've just thought of another potential use. These ships might make good emergency supply ships in their own right, getting a vital military cargo somewhere quickly. Plus being refuelers if required. They have tremendous fuel processing ability and can easily spare some to a friend in need.

The labs and engineering shops I have a use for in a story sketch I'd like to do for the first voyage, etc. We'll see how much I actually get around to though.
Well... not going to argue with you here. They don't take a lot of room (though remember pilots, maintenance crews, ordnance and fuel also take space) but as with the torps, capabilities are good.
Yep, state rooms for that lot were a nasty sting in the tail I discovered the hard way in the design mechanics. :)
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby barnest2 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:19 pm

Well, I drop my concerns. I like the designs generally. I'm still not totally in agreement with the UNREP equipment, but I shan't argue with you over it :) But then I much prefer looking at line squadrons (See TCS) with their easy access to resources over these crazy protagonist-style warships :P
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Re: Fast Cruiser Designs: Rakasha, Pazuzu, Abishai - Jump 6

Postby barnest2 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:25 pm

All I can think of now is you as Hemphill and me as White Haven... If you've read Honour Harrington :P :lol:

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