Capital ship construction questions

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Chas
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Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:57 pm

So I've gone and got the Core rule book, High Guard and the Trillion Credit Squadron looking to replicate a build I did waaaaay back in the day.

There are two parts of the rules I'm currently struggling with and would appreciate some direction:

1. Meson screens. So the cost and weight of a meson screen for capital ships is per the table on High Guard page 65 (which as I understand it is not superseded by the errata for page 47). Above that table is the number of screens that can be allowed per tech level. Now on page 74 of High Guard under the barrage rules there's a clear reference to "Screens offer two points of protection per screen." On page 75 under Spinal Weapon attacks there is a not so clear reference to "(2 or screen or 3 if the screens to full action is being used)" Where I suspect the incorrect grammar of the first or is a typo and meant to be per or a screen.

Now correlating this back to the tables on page 65, a ship can have maximum of 6 screens at TL15. Which at 2 points per screen give a top technology screen level of 12 and if the screens to full order is given gives a maximum of 18. Which makes perfect sense using the Meson Gun Penetration rating table on page 76 of High Guard.

So from there taking the cost of an individual meson screen on page 65, it then becomes a simple matter to multiply the number of screens desired and get the appropriate cost, weight and screen strength.

However if we go to Julia's Planet Cruiser reference build on page 72 of High Guard, the meson screen is stated as "Level 6 Tech level 15 meson screen with no special features. It uses 252 tons and costs 1080MCr."

Meson screens are TL12 so for the TL15 used in the example we can reference the TL+3 benefits on page 53 (cost 200% tonnage 60%). So for a 75kton ship that is the Planet class we have the base stats of a single meson screen being 70 tons and 90MCr. So the T15 screen for the ship example should be 42 tons and 180MCr. Which is 1/6th of the units stated in the example.

So I'm assuming a "Level 6" screen (why in the world did they use that terminology when it's 6 screens, the "screen" as in a single screen is totally non-intuitive) does create a screen strength of 12 in standard usage and 18 in Screens to Full situations.

Can someone please confirm my understanding is correct? Thank you!!!

I've got another question on hull and section structure points, I can't make head or tail of the High Technology table on page 52 "Hull per" line but I'll come back to that.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby F33D » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:38 pm

Chas wrote: However if we go to Julia's Planet Cruiser reference build on page 72 of High Guard, the meson screen is stated as "Level 6 Tech level 15 meson screen with no special features. It uses 252 tons and costs 1080MCr."
Ignore ship examples in all the books if they conflict with the rules. Too many examples of whoever designed the ships not being familiar with the ship building rules.
Chas
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:09 pm

F33D wrote:
Chas wrote: However if we go to Julia's Planet Cruiser reference build on page 72 of High Guard, the meson screen is stated as "Level 6 Tech level 15 meson screen with no special features. It uses 252 tons and costs 1080MCr."
Ignore ship examples in all the books if they conflict with the rules. Too many examples of whoever designed the ships not being familiar with the ship building rules.
I gathered from the errata I might have to take that route, though this is my first build and I'm going fluff a few things and want to be sure that I'm doing the correct thing if I do ignore the reference build. Still found the example very useful in that it's about the tonnage I'm in the process of building, but it took me while to nut through the back and forth obviously on screen rules while I'm getting up to speed here and I just wanted to double check that my understanding was correct before I start actually hammering out the details.

Also

Question 2.

How does one calculate the Hull and Structure point improvement from the technology advance please someone?
What does the 35 on the table on page 52 of High Guard, on the "Hull per" line at TL15 actually refer to?

I think I've worked the rest of the issues out, but this has me scratching my head at the moment.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Jeraa » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:17 pm

Question 2.

How does one calculate the Hull and Structure point improvement from the technology advance please someone?
What does the 35 on the table on page 52 of High Guard, on the "Hull per" line at TL15 actually refer to?

I think I've worked the rest of the issues out, but this has me scratching my head at the moment.
By default, all ships are assumed to be at TL 12. They have 1 hull point and 1 structure point per 50 tons of hull. So a 200 ton ship has 4 hull and 4 structure points.

That table modifies this. Instead of having 1 point per 50 tons, a ship has 1 hull and 1 structure point per X tons, where X equals whatever number is shown on the table. So, for a TL 15 ship, it has 1 hull and 1 structure point per 35 tons. That gives a TL 15 200 ton ship 5 hull and 5 structure points. The advanced materials that make up the hull make the ship stronger then the lower-tech ships.

(Likewise, a TL 7 ship only has 1 hull and 1 structure per 100 tons. So a 200 ton TL 7 ship only has 2 hull points and 2 structure points. Half as strong as a TL 12 ship.)
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:24 pm

Jeraa wrote:
Question 2.

How does one calculate the Hull and Structure point improvement from the technology advance please someone?
What does the 35 on the table on page 52 of High Guard, on the "Hull per" line at TL15 actually refer to?

I think I've worked the rest of the issues out, but this has me scratching my head at the moment.
By default, all ships are assumed to be at TL 12. They have 1 hull point and 1 structure point per 50 tons of hull. So a 200 ton ship has 4 hull and 4 structure points.

That table modifies this. Instead of having 1 point per 50 tons, a ship has 1 hull and 1 structure point per X tons, where X equals whatever number is shown on the table. So, for a TL 15 ship, it has 1 hull and 1 structure point per 35 tons. That gives a TL 15 200 ton ship 5 hull and 5 structure points. The advanced materials that make up the hull make the ship stronger then the lower-tech ships.

(Likewise, a TL 7 ship only has 1 hull and 1 structure per 100 tons. So a 200 ton TL 7 ship only has 2 hull points and 2 structure points. Half as strong as a TL 12 ship.)
Ah bingo! Ta very much /thumbsup
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:21 am

...
Chas
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:44 pm

Are there any rules for installing drop troops/jump troop fixtures into capital ships? Would these rules be found in Striker? Thanks.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby AndrewW » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:55 pm

Chas wrote:Are there any rules for installing drop troops/jump troop fixtures into capital ships? Would these rules be found in Striker? Thanks.
Doesn't really need specific rules, those are usually deployed by small craft. So need berthing and the craft to deliver them.

But there are Re-entry Capsules in Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:05 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Chas wrote:Are there any rules for installing drop troops/jump troop fixtures into capital ships? Would these rules be found in Striker? Thanks.
Doesn't really need specific rules, those are usually deployed by small craft. So need berthing and the craft to deliver them.

But there are Re-entry Capsules in Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats.
What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?

I'd picked up Fighting Ships supplement and didn't anything suitable there (though I was pleased to see the assumptions I'd made regards bridge costing were correct and the Juilia's Planet pricing was totally wrong, not just the errata; the ship layout there is a definite improvement).
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby AndrewW » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Chas wrote:What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?
Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle

Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers:
Boarding Shuttle (for ship to ship), also available in Signs & Portents #84.
Deployment Shuttle
Chas wrote:I'd picked up Fighting Ships supplement and didn't anything suitable there
Fighting Ships tends towards larger military vessels.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby F33D » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:34 pm

AndrewW wrote: Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle
You could always just strap parachutes on the combat armoured Marines and have them jump out of the cargo hold. Low opening Steering parachutes linked to an inertial guidance widget.

Probably less of a target that shoving them into a single landing craft... :shock:
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Jeraa » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:17 pm

F33D wrote:
AndrewW wrote: Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle
You could always just strap parachutes on the combat armoured Marines and have them jump out of the cargo hold. Low opening Steering parachutes linked to an inertial guidance widget.

Probably less of a target that shoving them into a single landing craft... :shock:
But with the assault shuttle, if it stays on the ground, it becomes a bunker. Its 8 points of armor (and the scaling damage between characters/vehicles and starships) makes it hard to damage unless you have a starship-grade weapon or a large amount of concentrated vehicle weapon fire. Its autocannons and flamethrowers can support the Marines. Replace the fixed-mount beam lasers with turret-mount beam lasers, and its ever better. Assuming you use High Guards correction for beam laser damage, thats 1d6x50 damage to vehicles and people for a single beam laser. The assault shuttle has two.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby F33D » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:52 pm

Jeraa wrote:
F33D wrote:
AndrewW wrote: Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle
You could always just strap parachutes on the combat armoured Marines and have them jump out of the cargo hold. Low opening Steering parachutes linked to an inertial guidance widget.

Probably less of a target that shoving them into a single landing craft... :shock:
But with the assault shuttle, if it stays on the ground, it becomes a bunker. Its 8 points of armor (and the scaling damage between characters/vehicles and starships) makes it hard to damage unless you have a starship-grade weapon or a large amount of concentrated vehicle weapon fire. Its autocannons and flamethrowers can support the Marines. Replace the fixed-mount beam lasers with turret-mount beam lasers, and its ever better. Assuming you use High Guards correction for beam laser damage, thats 1d6x50 damage to vehicles and people for a single beam laser. The assault shuttle has two.
Sure, if you're attacking a planet that doesn't even have a couple small craft sized fighters or tanks that's true. If they do, you don't want to send Marines down with a single assault shuttle as the fighters would keep the Marines pinned in the shuttle...
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:52 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Chas wrote:What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?
Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle

Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers:
Boarding Shuttle (for ship to ship), also available in Signs & Portents #84.
Deployment Shuttle
Thanks Andrew. I've already got the boarding craft per High Guard for my heavy cruiser. I was looking for something to get people to the surface in one piece. Though I have to admit I'm not entirely convinced by the small group of marines viability without further back up and some of the ship builds I've seen with them in look a little dicey.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby GamingGlen » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:43 am

AndrewW wrote:
Chas wrote:What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?
Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle

Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers:
Boarding Shuttle (for ship to ship), also available in Signs & Portents #84.
Deployment Shuttle
Dang. Now I'll have to get those two to add the craft to my Book 2 ship building spreadsheet (I was just using the CT versions of those supplements).
Glen
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby AndrewW » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:21 am

GamingGlen wrote:Dang. Now I'll have to get those two to add the craft to my Book 2 ship building spreadsheet (I was just using the CT versions of those supplements).

If it's ship building, there's ship equipment equipment scattered over a number of books (including a little bit in both of those)...
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby GamingGlen » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:08 am

AndrewW wrote:
GamingGlen wrote:Dang. Now I'll have to get those two to add the craft to my Book 2 ship building spreadsheet (I was just using the CT versions of those supplements).

If it's ship building, there's ship equipment equipment scattered over a number of books (including a little bit in both of those)...
I already have many of those books and incorporated their information.
Glen
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby AndrewW » Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:30 am

GamingGlen wrote:I already have many of those books and incorporated their information.
There's an index here that might help:

http://www.wuala.com/AndrewW/Traveller/ ... nents.png/
Chas
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby Chas » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:21 am

GamingGlen wrote:
AndrewW wrote:
Chas wrote:What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?
Supplement 2: Traders and Gunboats:
Assault Shuttle

Supplement 10: Merchants and Cruisers:
Boarding Shuttle (for ship to ship), also available in Signs & Portents #84.
Deployment Shuttle
Dang. Now I'll have to get those two to add the craft to my Book 2 ship building spreadsheet (I was just using the CT versions of those supplements).
I redoing a design, and having fun nutting through it, I did back in the days of not-even-a-calculator. And, yep, having excel really helps, even with my limited excel-fu :lol: I'm sure many of you guys have really grunty programs set up for all sorts of stuff.

One question I'd like to pop out to the more initiated and that is what your opinions are regards the use of sandcasters, and the right balance of sandcasters vs. beam laser/particle beam turrets in a >10 armor ship at large capital ship level, heavy cruisers and battleships TL15. As I see it, you either want a chunk, to make sure you get the "more than" bonuses as best you can, or not bother with them at all, but I certainly haven't seen any design that has dropped them completely.
There's an index here that might help:

http://www.wuala.com/AndrewW/Traveller/ ... nents.png/
Thanks Andrew, I'm picking up Gunboats and Travellers, and some interesting stuff in there.
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Re: Capital ship construction questions

Postby locarno24 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:09 pm

What I'd be looking then for is some manner of armored ship to planet surface marine assault carrier. Any recommendations where I might find something like that Andrew?
Frankly, if the marines are in battle dress with grav assist, they literally can - as per the rulebook suggestion - be "kicked out in orbit and told to capture that planet". No specific interface craft is needed. Drop under grav assist during re-entry (to prevent re-entry temperature rising beyond what the armour can handle), then HALO freefall/terminal grav activation for landing.
One question I'd like to pop out to the more initiated and that is what your opinions are regards the use of sandcasters, and the right balance of sandcasters vs. beam laser/particle beam turrets in a >10 armor ship at large capital ship level, heavy cruisers and battleships TL15. As I see it, you either want a chunk, to make sure you get the "more than" bonuses as best you can, or not bother with them at all, but I certainly haven't seen any design that has dropped them completely.
Competitive/Rules hat on:
Actually, there's a fair logic that says you can take a minimal number of weapon mounts (giving you the point defence lasers and point defence sandcasters defence DMs) without taking significant volume. Theoretically one of each is sufficient.

Now trying not to be a tool:
I don't like sandcasters. They just annoy me as a piece of technology, so I tend to never use them in the first place. They only really affect lasers, and the only lasers that really matter to a proper capital warship are bomb-pumped torpedoes, which can also be cut into by laser point defence. As a result I tend to go for massed pulse laser point defence and thick armour.

At TL14/15, unless you're getting into missile packs and fire control networks, your first choice is a honking great spinal mount. Particle or meson to taste. Max out armour, then take a decent spread of very high yield particle heavy bay mounts as secondary weapons, then triple mount pulse lasers for point defence. Once you're facing proper armoured juggernauts, anything which isn't the biggest gun available is massively defanged, especially in barrage engagements. Particle turret mounts aren't much use and even barbettes don't do too much!
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.

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