Prime Directive...

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Sgt_G » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:03 am

For what it's worth, I'm working on deck plans for the Federation Police Cutter. That ship is about the size of the aft / secondary hull of the Federation Heavy Cruiser. It's also the equivalent of a six-story building the length of an NFT football field (body = 108 x 27.5 meters). I can't imagine trying to map out something like the Texas-class Light Cruiser.
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The above post is my personal opinion; I do not work for ADB or Mongoose.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby captainquirk » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:37 am

I really don't understand why ADB have developed this obsession with deck plans to the extent that it delays a publication. Why can't they put out Traveller PD, and THEN publish a supplement with deck plans for those who really want them? That way the whole deck plan issue doesn't keep dragging out the release date of the main rulebook.

At this rate, by the time Traveller PD ever sees print the market will have gone anyway.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Hopeless » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:00 am

I'd be willing to pay for those deck plans separate from the main rulebook.

I thought pd1 only had one ship listed?

And I was worried they wouldn't release the other supplements!
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Greg Smith » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:53 pm

I think it is the Traveller obsession with deck plans that ADB are dealing with.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Da Boss » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:27 pm

Rockymountainnavy wrote:I fear that this obsession with deck plans, be it from ADB or Mongoose, is creating an artificial barrier to publication that is unnecessary. Deck plans are certainly nice, but not necessary to enjoy the game. and lots of other good stuff
.
This seems an excellent idea - concentrate on the areas that are actually needed for adventuring and make them good........
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby captainquirk » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:08 pm

I don't remember there being deck plans in the original LBBs. They came later, with the publication of suppelments and adventures.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Sgt_G » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:56 pm

Up-topic, Jean said:
In the SFU, ships have many decks and one does (we were told) need to know where the bridge is, where the infirmary is, where the engine room is, where the weapons rooms are, etc. to find out how long it takes for a player character to get from spot A to spot B. We're not talking about the really detailed plans that show the beds and the desks and the tables -- just "general" locations.
Well, in the deck plans I'm working on, I do have every bed and desk and table mapped out. I put that stuff in there so as to be able to guage whether or not the rooms were the "right" size. I suppose I could have deleted them after, but what the heck -- the Police Cutter is the smallest ship in the fleet, so I would presume its deck plans would be published at a larger scale than most warships.

Question is: just how much detail would players want? Example: I still need to fill Sick Bay with all the beds and such. Do players want that, or is it a waste of my time? I could just leave a big 12x19 meter empty box, put text "SICK BAY" in it, and call it a day. If you just want empty boxes with text saying what the rooms are, I can finish this project tomorrow. But if you want / think-you-need all the beds and chairs marked, I have a bit more to do. Check out the topic on the SFB discussion board.

I was just looking at Nick Blank's Fed FFG deck plans, and they're a bit of a mix: a lot of rooms have beds & chairs marked, others just have a text label. Then again, the FFG has about 60% more deck area / floor space than the POL does.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Rockymountainnavy » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:43 pm

Lots of good resources at http://www.starfleetgames.com/deckplanresources.shtml including nine complete deck plans. Some are more detailed than others. Personally I like the spartan plan of the D7 which leaves more to the imagination (i.e. GM or player control) and is more like CT plans - not too detailed. See the original Snapshot or Azhanti High Lightning plans and you get rooms only (Snapshot) or just a few stations (AHL). The Star Fleet Universe is a big ship universe more like AHL. Don't get lost in the details...keep it simple!

I have to wonder, based on several of Matt's comments in other threads, if we will really ever see Traveller PD. Looking at more recent Mongoose Traveller items you see the arrival of smaller PDF books. Does this mean we might never see a full deadtree version of PD? I fear there may be some legal contractual complications at work here...

From my perspective I can tell you I am more likely to buy the electronic version than a deadtree one. Like Matt says, I am one of those RPG players who has embraced technology. I hope ADB is not one of those wargaming groups that Matt mentions as technology adverse.

Regardless, and at the risk of sounding repetitive, I encourage ADB and Mongoose to get over the deck plan fetish and sell us the game!
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:17 am

My final thoughts on to deck, or not to deck (until the PD book is released, which I have on pre-order)...

If there is an adventure in the Traveller PD book, I expect to see a deckplan, too. That's just the way it is. At the very least there needs to be an example ship being built in the ship building chapter (showing deckplans of it in the process). There will be a ship building chapter, right? :)
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby mechascorpio » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:25 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:If there is an adventure in the Traveller PD book, I expect to see a deckplan, too. That's just the way it is. At the very least there needs to be an example ship being built in the ship building chapter (showing deckplans of it in the process). There will be a ship building chapter, right? :)
Words out of my mouth. Agreed.

These are my expectations. Welcome to the Traveller universe.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Sgt_G » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:14 am

Rockymountainnavy wrote:Lots of good resources at http://www.starfleetgames.com/deckplanresources.shtml including nine complete deck plans.
LOL! Check out the document "How to Draw Starship Deck Plans" and see who the authors are. ;-)
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby mechascorpio » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:07 am

Sgt_G wrote:Well, in the deck plans I'm working on, I do have every bed and desk and table mapped out. I put that stuff in there so as to be able to guage whether or not the rooms were the "right" size. I suppose I could have deleted them after, but what the heck -- the Police Cutter is the smallest ship in the fleet, so I would presume its deck plans would be published at a larger scale than most warships.

Question is: just how much detail would players want? Example: I still need to fill Sick Bay with all the beds and such. Do players want that, or is it a waste of my time? I could just leave a big 12x19 meter empty box, put text "SICK BAY" in it, and call it a day. If you just want empty boxes with text saying what the rooms are, I can finish this project tomorrow. But if you want / think-you-need all the beds and chairs marked, I have a bit more to do. Check out the topic on the SFB discussion board.

I was just looking at Nick Blank's Fed FFG deck plans, and they're a bit of a mix: a lot of rooms have beds & chairs marked, others just have a text label. Then again, the FFG has about 60% more deck area / floor space than the POL does.
It really does depend on the size of the ship, and the scale you're reasonably able to represent on the page. Personally, I think the approach in the FFG, D7 and Skyhawk (for instance) on that page look great and do the job.

The Tholian may be good, but the images in that PDF are so low a resolution that it's impossible to read, all the detail is lost. I didn't see anything in your design docs about image resolution specifically, so hopefully no one is working and submitting their work in 72 dpi. Example: Snipe plans, can barely make out a thing. Right amount of detail, but can't be read because of the resolution. Will look awful on paper if that's the master copy.

Related to that, beds in sickbay? Will you really be able to make out those details clearly when it is printed out? Or is the ship so big that a better approach would be just to have a blank room with a label, and perhaps a callout close-up view showing details of key rooms (bridge, sickbay, typical bunk, bay). But if the effective printed size of your sickbay in the plans is as small as a square centimeter, the label is more important than the beds. Just my opinion, but the level of detail shown in the Free Trader on that page seems just fine to me. It all depends on whether these are for book or some larger printed deckplan project.

But again, all this work will be for nothing if the images used are not print resolution. Matt and the Mongoose folks know all about this.

I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, or if these particular plans were even intended for the Traveller:PD book, but it looks to me like you guys are closer to finished than we may have thought.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby captainquirk » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:11 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:If there is an adventure in the Traveller PD book, I expect to see a deckplan, too. That's just the way it is. At the very least there needs to be an example ship being built in the ship building chapter (showing deckplans of it in the process). There will be a ship building chapter, right? :)
I'm pretty sure ADB have already said in a previous thread that there wasn't going to be a ship building chapter. Maybe Jean can confirm one way or another.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Sgt_G » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:17 pm

mechascorpio wrote:The Tholian may be good, but the images in that PDF are so low a resolution that it's impossible to read, all the detail is lost. I didn't see anything in your design docs about image resolution specifically, so hopefully no one is working and submitting their work in 72 dpi. Example: Snipe plans, can barely make out a thing. Right amount of detail, but can't be read because of the resolution. Will look awful on paper if that's the master copy.
Some of those images were intentionally blurred / degraded when they were posted to the web page. Trust me, the "real" copy and printed version are perfectly legible. My guess: ADB wanted to give people a little taste but force them to BUY the real thing.

I think what I will do is continue filling in the blank spaces with furniture and other equipment, and let the publishers decide what scale to print them out at. If it's at a playable scale of 1cm = 1 meter or larger, they can leave everything marked; any scale smaller, and they can use the text-labeled version. Once I have all the "stuff" placed in the ship, it's pretty easy to go back and delete some of it. I'll just have to be sure to save it as a new file and not over-write the detailed version. Did that once on an earlier version of this project; was not happy with myself.
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The above post is my personal opinion; I do not work for ADB or Mongoose.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby jeheregh » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:19 pm

It would be nice if a actual deckplan supplement ect or something existed so that we could using these great rules, photo copy or whatever <legal use > and make deckplans. I really like Mongoose's approach to use Traveller as their base dice rolling system and them make supplemental books that permit you to play other genres universes of sci fi. what stops alot of gms is not understanding volume and using ship designs that are modular slots.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Sgt_G » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:08 pm

I presume you want a bunch of "tiles" representing say a 10x10 meter area, like a bridge or phaser mount, and then you arrange them to map out the ship. Yeah, I've seen products like that. For some reason, they never sold all that well.


On a different subject .... I printed out the Police Cutter deck plans I've been drafting. I found I can get all eight desk, a side cut-away view, and a top and front view with warp engines attached all on one 8-1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at an exact scale of 1:1000 / 1mm = 1m / 1cm = 10m. Granted you need a magnifying lens to read it, but all the furniture (chairs/beds/etc) are identifiable. It's not a playable scale, obviously, but it does give a nice overview of the entire ship all at once.
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The above post is my personal opinion; I do not work for ADB or Mongoose.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Lemnoc » Thu May 16, 2013 5:15 pm

Galahad64 wrote:Ok..I know a lot of post probably about this already...but NOW is there a release date for Prime directive? Been waiting diligently since last November.
What a terrible lost sales opportunity this wasn't released in time or tandem with the new ST film. Less IDIC than AIDA*

* Attention. Interest. Decision. Action. :D
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby Hopeless » Fri May 17, 2013 10:50 am

Out of curiosity how difficult would it be to post a pdf adventure using elements from the core rules but no ship like a sort of taster for whats to come?

Would you like to see some kind of short adventure using pre-gen characters in a prime directive style rather than Imperium or T2300?
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby daryen » Fri May 24, 2013 5:20 pm

A couple of points:

1) This is not ADB's obsession with deck plans. This is a Mongoose requirement. Quite frankly, this would already be published if we could just do the deckplans needed for players right away (Free Trader, Skiff, Gunboat, Shuttles, Fed Frigate, Small Freighter) and skip the rest. It is Mongoose that demands the deck plans to be included. If Mongoose were to allow an exception to that requirement, I am sure the book would be completed in record time.

2) There is no ship building system in the core rules. Quite frankly, the moment you include a ship building system into Prime Directive, you have just make all prior ship designs irrelevant and thrown game balance out the window. Ships in the SFU are built and created according to game balance, not by components. If you reduce the SFU ships to components and rebuild them, they will annihilate any stock design. I am pretty sure that Mongoose will eventually release a ship building system, but once that is done, all previously published ships instantly become obsolete and irrelevant.
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Re: Prime Directive...

Postby daryen » Fri May 24, 2013 5:23 pm

Hopeless wrote:Out of curiosity how difficult would it be to post a pdf adventure using elements from the core rules but no ship like a sort of taster for whats to come?
Let me think on that and see if I can submit something to ADB for it.

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