Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Egil Skallagrimsson
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 6:59 pm

Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:59 pm

No, not the usual question about "is skill 4 the best possible?"

Should the total number of skill levels possible for a character be capped? This works on the assumption that there is only so much time to train and practice skills, and those not used regularly will start to atrophy. Basically, you might once have had a level 2 skill in slug rifle, medic or drive, but if you don't shoot a rifle, or practice any medicine, or drive a vehicle for (say) 4 years, you just aren't as good as you once were.

The idea is that the total number of skill levels cannot exceed Int x2, and in addition characters can have a number of level 0 skills equal to Int x2. If a characters skills exceeds those, they have to lose a skill level or a level 0 skill.

This could be seen as solving a problem which doesn't exist, as most MgT characters, with between 4 and 6 terms have around 10-15 skill levels and a few level 0 skills, so hardly a issue. I am currently putting together a homebrew campaign where some of the alien races will live substantially longer than humans, and I don't want NPCs or PCs who have done 12 terms, and are level 4+ in just about everything.

Any thoughts? Is Int x2 to high, or to low?

Thanks

Egil
Alles fur Gram - Official motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
Wein, Weib und Gesang - Unofficial motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
rust
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 5941
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:17 pm
Location: Sonthofen / Germany

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby rust » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:37 pm

A skill level limit of INT x 2 is a good option, although I have
to admit that I would very much prefer a solution that is ba-
sed upon the internal logic of the setting instead of on the ga-
me mechanics. For example, perhaps only the younger mem-
bers of the alien species are active off their homeworld, and
at a certain age they are expected to return to their home-
world and settle down.
F33D
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby F33D » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:24 am

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:No, not the usual question about "is skill 4 the best possible?"
That's what I use. Int X 2 sounds reasonable for total limit. That gives the average person 14 slots. Don't count 0 level skills of course.
User avatar
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3010
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:13 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:37 am

An entire race of long-lived adventurers. Sounds interesting. What setting would support it though? :)
Nathan Brazil
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Contact:

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Nathan Brazil » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:24 am

I use to use Skill Level 8. I do a lot of conversion between D20 and Traveller and have found that this works well.

D20 DC's to Traveller Task Difficulties
-(((DC -10) x 2)/5) = Task Difficulty
and back again
(((0 - Task Difficulty) /2 ) x5 ) +10= D20 DC

Skill Ranks
(((Skill Ranks -3)x 2)/5) -1 (Round Up) = Skill Level

(((Skill Level +1) x 5) / 2) +3 = Skill Ranks

For me anyways.... :!:
0401 X55A670-A S he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+ 733
IMTU tc+ tm tn++ t4+ tg t20++ ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt-- au- ls pi+ ta he+ hi++ as va ith-- vr+ ne- so+
Egil Skallagrimsson
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 6:59 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:46 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:An entire race of long-lived adventurers. Sounds interesting. What setting would support it though? :)
Just a few ideas I am kicking around for a homebrew setting

I looked up the Vegans in the Solomani book, they live a lot longer than humans etc, for ideas, they just seem to learn a slower and have much longer terms, which might be another way to think about it.
Alles fur Gram - Official motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
Wein, Weib und Gesang - Unofficial motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
Egil Skallagrimsson
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 6:59 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:57 am

rust wrote:I have
to admit that I would very much prefer a solution that is ba-
sed upon the internal logic of the setting instead of on the ga-
me mechanics. For example, perhaps only the younger mem-
bers of the alien species are active off their homeworld, and
at a certain age they are expected to return to their home-
world and settle down.
Agreed there, but, on return to the homeworld the long lived alien will still have a career of somekind (ok, in some races they might be deep frozen for 200 years, and only thawed out when their experiences are required, however ...), and so should, in most cases, still develop appropriate skills (and perhaps slowly lose skills which are no longer necessary to their new careers).

Traveller works on the basis of "three score years and ten" as a baseline, which seems to include Vargr and Aslan as well (not sure about the other major races), but if we allow a variety of different aliens, it is reasonable to decide that some may expect much longer, or shorter, life spans. However, I don't want NPCs or PCs with 24 terms and level 6 in just about everything (though, of course, that could another way of modelling longevity!).

Egil
Alles fur Gram - Official motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
Wein, Weib und Gesang - Unofficial motto of Gram's 3rd Grenadier Regiment
Greylond
Mongoose
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:53 am

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Greylond » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:09 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:An entire race of long-lived adventurers. Sounds interesting. What setting would support it though? :)
David Weber's Honor Harrington setting.
Captain Jonah
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1758
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Captain Jonah » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:18 pm

My half a credit. :wink:

Firstly why is the limit based on INT?
From the Rule book:
Intelligence (Int): A character’s intellect and quickness of mind.
Intelligence is used in a great many skill checks.
Education (Edu): A measure of a character’s learning and experience.
Education is also used in a great many skill checks.

Secondly as Rust says this should be based on the game not purely on a stat.

Purely by the RAW if you complete 10 terms and get to rank 6 you can have 20+ skill levels if you include one per term, advancements, events and rank skills. What happens if your character is 777777. You start throwing away skills because you are too stupid to remember them even though you have an average intellect and education.
It is harder to learn new skills as you get older but not impossible. Older and wiser except when you have a lower stat which means that someone with a fraction of your life experience knows more than you.

The expected life span is a factor as is the underlying tech level, the cultural attitude towards education etc. Your formative years are a big factor, growing up and going to school on a high tech world is going to influence how you learn new skills for many years to come.

The Honorverse was mentioned, humans with a lifespan of hundreds of years. You meet many of the extremely well educated and experienced people in the books. Yes they are character types but 30-40 years as a merchant then a decade as a mustang in the navy and not yet hitting middle age makes for a character with a lot of skills. Or the 40 year veteran marine or the over one hundred year old admirals who are still going strong.

Any limit on skills known should be based on EDU. Either EDU x 2 plus factors or 8+ EDU plus factors.

The factors are then things like:

Home world tech level factor x 2 (IE tech 9-11 = +2, tech 12-14 = +4 etc)

Attended college/uni or another term of formal higher education + 1-3

Access to training aids, libraries, simulators or able to train and practice all skills +2

High INT, add factor. (INT does not determine learning but a quick and agile mind helps to learn and retain learning).

Low INT, lower by factor. (As above, a slow mind limits learning and remembering old skills).

Game verse factor. Are you laying in a high tech verse where hypno learning and VR training are commonplace or is it a verse where the frontier world or remnant worlds have little access to the sort of tech the core or old empire took for granted. The kingdom/empire of Manticore has a high bonus to this, the frontier types from Firefly have a penalty here.


Other ideas and factors.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
F33D
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby F33D » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Captain Jonah wrote:My half a credit. :wink:

Firstly why is the limit based on INT?
From the Rule book:
Intelligence (Int): A character’s intellect and quickness of mind.
intellect, n.

1. That faculty, or sum of faculties, of the mind or soul by which one knows and reasons.
Captain Jonah
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1758
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Captain Jonah » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:26 pm

F33D wrote:
Captain Jonah wrote:My half a credit. :wink:

Firstly why is the limit based on INT?
From the Rule book:
Intelligence (Int): A character’s intellect and quickness of mind.
intellect, n.

1. That faculty, or sum of faculties, of the mind or soul by which one knows and reasons.

This isn't real life. This is Traveller :wink:

The Traveller stats cover specicifc areas

Intelligence (Int): A character’s intellect and quickness of mind.
Intelligence is used in a great many skill checks.
Education (Edu): A measure of a character’s learning and experience.
Education is also used in a great many skill checks.

Learning and experience fairly well covers knowing skills withing the game.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
Hopeless
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1163
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 3:14 pm
Location: UK

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Hopeless » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Would it also allow for a change of basic training skills?

For example the character started off as a marine due to an outbreak of war eventually ending up aboard a small ship they obtained the deeds for after the end of the war and they mustered out ending up permanently landing on a new homeworld where their old skills are no longer being used and trying to adapt he/she has to develop a new trade that of a scholar/Physician to help the new colony.

If not using certain skills will slowly degrade them, what if a new skill set is needed instead?
F33D
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby F33D » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:50 am

Captain Jonah wrote:
This isn't real life. This is Traveller :wink:
That's the exact word used to define the attribute in the CRB. That's why words have definitions and why writers choose their words the way they do. ;)
mattman
Stoat
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:09 pm
Location: North America

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby mattman » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:52 am

INT is fantastic for saying the maximum skill die modifier. Thanks for that.
CosmicGamer
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:45 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby CosmicGamer » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:00 am

Wasn't the max skills INT+EDU in some version(s) of Traveller?
dragoner
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm
Location: Indiana, US

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby dragoner » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:27 am

CosmicGamer wrote:Wasn't the max skills INT+EDU in some version(s) of Traveller?
Yes, CT iirc.
Infojunky
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: North of Center California

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby Infojunky » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:51 am

CosmicGamer wrote:Wasn't the max skills INT+EDU in some version(s) of Traveller?
Yep, kinda, it was a DGP artifact that wandered into MegaTraveller.

I always ignored it. Meaning you had to be playing a pretty munchkin character to ever hit up against it.

Even the Army Major with Pistol 6 that one player used in my early games totals where nowhere near that limit in terms of his overall skills.
Evyn
dragoner
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm
Location: Indiana, US

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby dragoner » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:52 pm

If you count 0 lvl's, mong would hit that limit pretty quick, I had a few extended chargen players/characters hit the limit in CT.
CosmicGamer
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:45 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby CosmicGamer » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:32 pm

dragoner wrote:If you count 0 lvl's, mong would hit that limit pretty quick
My math skill says counting 0 would not be an issue. The default CRB method of gaining new skills says "level zero skills count as zero". I see no reason to count them any other way here.

How do you count 0's?
F33D
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1645
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Maximum Skill Levels/Maximum Experience

Postby F33D » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:42 pm

CosmicGamer wrote:
How do you count 0's?
0

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests