Deckplans - What would you like to see?

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AndrewW
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Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Just throwing this out there.

What kinds of things would you like to see on deckplans, what should be included and what shouldn't be included?

If you could change things, what would you change in existing deckplans?
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby mr31337 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:54 pm

I can't really understand why gunners need to be next to turrets. Fire control should be on the bridge. Also, the 'iris' style doors seems very antiquated, apparently all doors are airtight, so no need for iris doors internally. Generally, a higher level of quality/clairty/resolution would be nice in deckplans, the current ones look so dated.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby tneva82 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:05 pm

mr31337 wrote:I can't really understand why gunners need to be next to turrets.
OTOH is it too good idea to load up everything on bridge? Cut of bridge then and everything goes. Boom.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby phavoc » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:22 pm

It would be nice to see some things on deckplans quantified. Access corridors through fuel tanks for external turrets. Galleys, storage areas, properly sized staterooms, rec area, etc.

Military ships should have more compartmentilization than civilian ones.

Properly sized airlocks, ships lockers, armories, morgues for combat armor. You don't really see too many hangars either on ships (since most are small and can't afford a hangar).

A silly thing.... but lifts! You aren't going to have non-crewmembers moving between decks only with ladders!!

If it's a warship, and they have missiles or torpedoes, lets see a magazine nearby with a feed mechanism.

Depending on how detailed the deck plan is getting, can we see actual workstations and furniture to get an idea of scale?
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby Jeraa » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:26 pm

The gunners aren't on the bridge because this isn't Star Trek. There isn't a single gunner controlling all the weapons.

And with the weapon controls scattered all around the ship, its a lot less likely a single hit would disable them all. If they were all in single location, and that location is damaged/destroyed, you just lost the ability to fire every single weapon on your ship.

While they don't really need to be next to the turret, its still a good idea to have the gunner there. Assuming the gunner knows at least something about how his weapon works, he should be able to perform minor repairs if necessary.

As for the bridge, it shouldn't be exposed on the outside of the ship. Sure, a smaller ship may not have the internal space necessary, but a larger ship should have no need for an exposed bridge. Bridges should be buried deep within the hull for added protection. And at least 1 backup bridge or control area.

And no windows. Really, unless your ship is capable of flying into an atmosphere, there really isn't going to be too much to see. Windows are just weak points in the hull.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby mr31337 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Jeraa wrote:The gunners aren't on the bridge because this isn't Star Trek. There isn't a single gunner controlling all the weapons.

And with the weapon controls scattered all around the ship, its a lot less likely a single hit would disable them all. If they were all in single location, and that location is damaged/destroyed, you just lost the ability to fire every single weapon on your ship.

While they don't really need to be next to the turret, its still a good idea to have the gunner there. Assuming the gunner knows at least something about how his weapon works, he should be able to perform minor repairs if necessary.
I guess you've never been on board a modern warship. Ironically, what you descirbe is an antique warship.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby dragoner » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:11 pm

AndrewW wrote:Just throwing this out there.

What kinds of things would you like to see on deckplans, what should be included and what shouldn't be included?

If you could change things, what would you change in existing deckplans?

Mostly they are good, except when they aren't, and by that I mean the deckplans are either blurry or poorly drawn.

I would most likely have a modern fire-control setup, but that's a minor detail I would put in my own designs if drawing them up.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby Jak Nazryth » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:47 pm

First Andrew, are you asking what would be a wish list of graphic representations on a deck plan, or the rules/game design mechanics used to design a Mongoose Traveller ship?
I’ll take a stab at both. This is coming from a registered Architect so I might want more than the normal gamer, simply because I'm used to seeing more detail and design elements on sets of plans… AND I pay very close attention to the living environment inside a ship/on a deck plan. I want to see how people interact with the spaces on board the ship, the living conditions, the actual REAL clutter once a ship is build out. If you think the spaces are cramped on a basic deck plan with a bunch of “empty” boxes of space, you should see them when they are filled with furniture, counters, equipment, pool tables, etc…. So if the question is actual graphics, I would like to see elements mentioned above as aposed to empty 2x3 boxes for state rooms and 2x4 boxes for med bays, 3x12 boxes or so for bridge etc… Again, its just me, but I think it helps players get a better feel for their “home in space”. I have enlarged drawings of my ship galleys for instance so the players know where the food processor, cold storage, cooking area, dish washers etc… are located. BUT if you are not careful the deck plan can become graphically too cluttered. Luckily I use Autocad and can turn on and off layers, print small scale plans on 8 1/2x11 without much detail, but then print out full sized plans on 24x36 for use with miniatures with all the furniture, toilet, equipment, etc… layers turned on.

If the question is what rule changes we would like to see in the actual game mechanics, I have a different take. First I completely agree with the iris valve being outmoded. Can it truly be airtight? Metal scraping against metal? How does it seal? And yes, I know it’s very high tech 2k years in the future so that could be the answer. I rarely use them in my designs, particularly since they require a large area around the opening for the individual blades to fold back into. I know it’s WAY too much realism since Traveller is after all a sci-fi RPG, but I mostly use hatches or sliding panels.
I hate to keep mentioning competing rule systems, since I DO really like 90%+ of the Mongoose game mechanic, but GURPS spaceship design has a lot to offer. GURPS completely handles the bridge different. It gives a range in bridge size, not 10/20/40 etc.. based on a ridged chart. GURPS bridges are designed around how many work stations you need/want. First you calculate minimum flight crew, and that’s how many spaces you need. Then you add work stations as you want. Each station takes 1 ton of space… that’s about the size of an average to large cubical in the typical modern office, 5’x10’, more than enough room for the seat, work/control surface, and clear circulation space to easily walk on the bridge. The average standard GURPS bridge is around 5 tons, but it can be just about any size you want. A GURPS bridge work station is also holographic and multi-tasking. It’s similar to a touch screen and can have any number of tasks at the same time, pilot, astrogation, gunnery, etc.. with an -1 for all tasks for each function on the control panels during the same combat round. Anyway, it’s a very flexible system. Other work stations, like gunnery, can be stationed around the ship, 1 ton each, but even those can be switched over to just about any kind of control you want. IMTU a DEDICATED control panel CANNOT be changed or multi-tasked, but you get a +1 to that task, like pilot or gunnery for instance.
Another thing I would add is air lock size. Currently I’m guessing it’s part of the “stateroom” generic public space.
Stairs. Since this was created in the mid-70’s I guess the thought at the time was that everyone would always use ladders and floor hatches. Also, pay attention to the location of your floor hatch. You realistically would not place a hole in the middle of your main passage. At the very least you would have a 1 box (5’x5’ or 1.5mx1.5m) space off to the side of the corridor for vertical circulation. But a fully enclosed stair, even if it’s a ship’s ladder, which is just a very steep stair, would be much more common especially on larger passenger ships. That and lifts as someone mention earlier.
For other ideas I would like to see life support equipment as a separate required space the same as GURPS has it. Landing gear taking up 2% or so of total tonnage would be an added requirement if I had my wish. This would be another advantage that non-streamlined “space only” ships would have over ships that can land… they get to keep more of their hulls volume for money making space like cargo or staterooms.
Sorry for the long email. There are more ideas but this is enough for now.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby phavoc » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:48 pm

Warships will have fire control center(s), and probably the ability to control the weapons as well (i.e. prioitize firing patterns, targets, etc). Most things will be run automatically.

The question is are you designing warship deckplans or civilian ones? A Free Trader is much different than a 5,000 ton destroyer. I would expect smaller ships would have most of their controls on the bridge from a cost and control perspective. After all they are merchants not warships, and costs as well as operations issues have a great deal of influence on their designs.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:39 pm

mr31337 wrote:I can't really understand why gunners need to be next to turrets. Fire control should be on the bridge. Also, the 'iris' style doors seems very antiquated, apparently all doors are airtight, so no need for iris doors internally. Generally, a higher level of quality/clairty/resolution would be nice in deckplans, the current ones look so dated.
With most Mongoose ones being vector based now they are resolution independent, unlike the previous bitmap ones.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:40 pm

phavoc wrote:Depending on how detailed the deck plan is getting, can we see actual workstations and furniture to get an idea of scale?
Usually get a bed in the stateroom anyways and work areas on the bridge with chairs is also common.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:49 pm

phavoc wrote:It would be nice to see some things on deckplans quantified. Access corridors through fuel tanks for external turrets. Galleys, storage areas, properly sized staterooms, rec area, etc.
If the turrets are remotely controlled (this doesn't have to be from the bridge or any sort of central fire control area) there isn't a real need, they can be accessed from the outside for repairs. This really depends on if Mongoose Traveller really needs a gunner sitting in the turret itself.
phavoc wrote:Properly sized airlocks, ships lockers, armories, morgues for combat armor. You don't really see too many hangars either on ships (since most are small and can't afford a hangar).
Proper sizing is nice though with Mongoose Traveller not really defining sizes for most of those (armories do have a defined size per umber of crew/marines) that's not a given.
phavoc wrote:A silly thing.... but lifts! You aren't going to have non-crewmembers moving between decks only with ladders!!
True, most ships should include some lifts and at least some do.
phavoc wrote:If it's a warship, and they have missiles or torpedoes, lets see a magazine nearby with a feed mechanism.
Agreed, ammo storage should be located near the weapons they feed. Also possibly equipped with lifts for moving the ordinance around if located on multiple decks.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:55 pm

Jak Nazryth wrote:First Andrew, are you asking what would be a wish list of graphic representations on a deck plan, or the rules/game design mechanics used to design a Mongoose Traveller ship?
Just the deckplans themselves.
Jak Nazryth wrote:I use Autocad and can turn on and off layers, print small scale plans on 8 1/2x11 without much detail, but then print out full sized plans on 24x36 for use with miniatures with all the furniture, toilet, equipment, etc… layers turned on.
Agreed, layers can be handy, though for printed/PDF type deckplans turning off layers isn't really an options.
Jak Nazryth wrote:At the very least you would have a 1 box (5’x5’ or 1.5mx1.5m) space off to the side of the corridor for vertical circulation. But a fully enclosed stair, even if it’s a ship’s ladder, which is just a very steep stair, would be much more common especially on larger passenger ships.

For other ideas I would like to see life support equipment as a separate required space the same as GURPS has it. Landing gear taking up 2% or so of total tonnage would be an added requirement if I had my wish. This would be another advantage that non-streamlined “space only” ships would have over ships that can land… they get to keep more of their hulls volume for money making space like cargo or staterooms.
Agreed, having some areas more defined within the rules would be nice, but who knows if we will ever see anything like that.
Jak Nazryth wrote:Sorry for the long email. There are more ideas but this is enough for now.
Not at all, appreciate you taking the time to answer.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby AndrewW » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:56 pm

Just to be clear on this, this is just me asking nothing official from Mongoose Publishing or anything.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby Easterner » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:37 am

Shipboard freshers for 'as needed' use scattered about the hull.

Air/Oxygen tanks.

Water tanks.

Filtration and pumps to refill above tanks.

Work shops: Mech, Elec.

Utilities: laundries, chapels, cleaning stores, libraries, PX, post office, food storage/refrigeration, garbage disposal/recycling.

Baffle plates for fuel tanks so all fuel isn't lost from one leak.

Space for landing legs. Fixed gear fine.

Air locks. Some designs have omitted, some are too tight, few have lifts/stairs.

Description of propulsion. Engine or grav or both.

Remember this is 3600 years in the future, many can be hidden, innovative or multi-purpose. But need be stated so crew and passengers know what they have or don't have for facilities.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby F33D » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:42 am

AndrewW wrote: If the turrets are remotely controlled (this doesn't have to be from the bridge or any sort of central fire control area) there isn't a real need, they can be accessed from the outside for repairs. This really depends on if Mongoose Traveller really needs a gunner sitting in the turret itself.

In MGT the computer can fire the guns so no need for a person in a turret. If manned it can be in bridge or where ever you put a fire control terminal....
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby Dave Chase » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:24 am

Jak Nazryth,
You mean something like this
Outpost Deck plan 2.jpg
Outpost Deck plan 2.jpg (194.7 KiB) Viewed 2473 times
Shotgun Deck 1.jpg
Shotgun Deck 1.jpg (96.47 KiB) Viewed 2473 times
I too like detail and color (when possible) for deck plans. Ergonomics is important.



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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby F33D » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:29 am

Dave Chase wrote:Jak Nazryth,
You mean something like this
If I'm going to pay for deck plans I'd expect this type of quality.
detail.png
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Otherwise, I'd just do my own.
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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby Dave Chase » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:52 am

F33D wrote:
Dave Chase wrote:Jak Nazryth,
You mean something like this
If I'm going to pay for deck plans I'd expect this type of quality.



Otherwise, I'd just do my own.
Fair enough. Now the question is how much more are you willing to pay for what you showed as compared to what Mongoose (or any past Traveller product) has done on deckplans?

I also like the details that GURPS had on their deckplans even though they were black and white.


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Re: Deckplans - What would you like to see?

Postby F33D » Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:03 am

Dave Chase wrote: Fair enough. Now the question is how much more are you willing to pay for what you showed as compared to what Mongoose (or any past Traveller product) has done on deckplans?

I also like the details that GURPS had on their deckplans even though they were black and white.


Dave Chase
First, I'd like it in pdf. (printing this is WAY too expensive) I'd pay ~$1 a ship more than without. (small ships up to 800 tons. Larger ones don't need this treatment.

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