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 Post subject: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:14 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 5:13 am
Posts: 462
You had the chance to remake Traveller?
What would you change?
I'm not talking about small changes, I'm talking about major changes.
When I started playing in 1980, Traveller was described as the "wild west" of Sci-fi future. Mark Miller initially wanted the look and feel of the late 1800's with a crew aboard a tramp steamer meandering the back waters of far flung ports off the beaten path with all the adventures that might happen on the open seas, or distant "uncivilized" ports of call etc.. I can't put my finger on it, but for some reason there seems to have been a bit of a drift from the original concept Mark had way back in the mid-to late 70's. Maybe because of obvious changes in technology...

After a long absence from the game, then consensus now seams to be Traveller represents the age of sail. That is a minor change I'm still not quite use to.
However, if you had a chance to "re-imagine" traveller, from the very beginning, what would you change? Including the "history" mark miller invented.
Would you change the role of earth and other major human races, including the history?
Would you change the 1 week per jump?
Would you change the 10% rule for fuel during jump?
Would you change the technology that does not allow "subspace"/"instant" communication prevalent in other sci-fi settings?
Would you change the large cumbersome Feudal system of the 3rd Emperium?
Would you change psionics?
Would you make the "look and feel" of your version of traveller more like one of your favorite series of shows, movies, or books?

Don't want to start a long argument/discussion over existing or past rules, but more of a "What would you do if you could scrap the whole thing and start from scratch?


Last edited by Jak Nazryth on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:21 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 3:14 pm
Posts: 631
Location: UK
I'd like a setting based on the solar system making use of such ideas as that supplement about Vacc Suits and the Mars idea.

Who'd fancy a series of books based around a certain world or even the asteroid belt?

What lies out by and beyond Pluto?

What do we actually know about our solar system and for that matter what about a Seaquest style setting where humanity develops the 70% part of the world's surface?

Gurps did Transhuman Space but there have been series dealing with this kind of idea, Space Cops, Dan Dare, Planet Survive (Japanese series about a group who end up on an alien world that can support life and how they deal with the situation) sorry I figured i'd expand beyond the core rules part.


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:34 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 593
Jak Nazryth wrote:
You had the chance to remake Traveller?
What would you change?
I'm not talking about small changes, I'm talking about major changes.


I would at least bring all tech level quip that is above 7 up to at LEAST up to late TL 7 standards. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:35 pm 
Banded Mongoose

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm
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Location: Place of Indians, US
Coming from an engineering background, the age of sail feel is something I've never done, and I've been playing since '81. It isn't 'ship' really, it's spacecraft, a fourth type of vehicle designed to operate outside atmosphere, and have made it so that the prevailing attitude is of "Dirtside" and "Starside" or spacer. I also use TL as an arbitrary non-scientific system created by a TL15 bureaucrat, so what they are saying, it doesn't always make sense in reality. The changes I have done are the changes I want, right now, I'm mixing transhumanism from eclipse phase into my game.

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:45 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: UK
Quote:
However, if you had a chance to "re-imagine" traveller, from the very beginning, what would you change? Including the "history" mark miller invented.
Would you change the role of earth and other major human races, including the history?
Would you change the 1 week per jump?
Would you change the 10% rule for fuel during jump?
Would you change the technology that does not allow "subspace"/"instant" communication prevalent in other sci-fi settings?
Would you change the large cumbersome Feudal system of the 3rd Emperium?
Would you change psionics?
Would you make the "look and feel" of your version of traveller more like one of your favorite series of shows, movies, or books?

1. Core rules, no setting material. That way you can run any number of different games off the one core rulebook - same schtick as for the World of Darkness / Vampire: the Requiem and so on.
2. Tweaks to the game: Traveller Modern (set on Earth, different time zones); Traveller Supers (characters are superheroes / villains); Traveller Planar (the setting involves time or dimensional travel); Traveller Psi (the emphasis is on psionics over the material) and so on.
3. Tweaks to Jump: Jump takes up 10% of the engine size per jump made; Jump doesn't last one week, but can last several weeks - the Jump rating only determines how far you can travel in parsecs during a Jump whose duration the pilot sets; different quanta of Jump - Q0 (puddle jumper; allow small craft to Jump), Q1 (standard, as described above), Q2 (Jumps measured in tens of thousands of parsecs, allowing for intragalactic travel), Q3 (Jumps measured in millions of parsecs, allowing for intergalactic travel), perhaps Q4 (permitting Jump travel to any part of the observable universe, making maps pretty much obsolete).
4. Tweaks to Chargen: Transhumanism is an option. Rules for stats greater than 15, particularly INT/EDU 16+, Ozymandias syndrome, with benefits to learning skills based on high Edu / Int (high Int allows more rapid learning, and high Edu allows a positive DM to the learning roll.
5. Changes to Psionics: So, so many flaws with the current dreadful afterthought that is the psionics system writeup. I'd have to write up the changes in a separate response, or even thread.
6. No official setting. No 3I means no grognards complaining about how the current version of the game is so different to all the other versions.

Those are the only ones I can think of for now.

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:45 am 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 593
alex_greene wrote:
[/url].
6. No official setting. No 3I means no grognards complaining about how the current version of the game is so different to all the other versions.

Those are the only ones I can think of for now.


2nd that!


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:03 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: UK
A Referee's guide would be good.

Not the Campaign Guide - that's just follow-the-tables. A guide to give Referees ideas on how to create compelling settings, how to scale games from one-shots to mini-series to full campaigns, through to tournament play, the dynastic campaign (not a campaign about dynasties, but one which is handed down for new players to continue to play in, or even reboot, once the original players retire), running online games via Play By Email, Play By Instant Chat, Play By Google Hangouts etc.

The Referee's Guide should also show the Referees where the setting levers are, so he can twesk the feel, the mood, the ambient tech of the story like a graphic equalizer, allowing him to tweak the mechanics from the Core Rulebook to allow things like a grav-heavy or grav-poor setting, a psi-heavy or psi-poor setting, running scenarios and campaigns steeped in money and prestige and backstabbing betrayal, or running stories right down in the dirt, scrabbling for cash which always seems to be in other people's pockets.

Some sort of sourcebook that can allow a Referee to create unique, memorable and enjoyable settings, each of which could have a different feel and look, should be considered essential; a new Book (Book 10: Referee perhaps?), rather than a new Supplement.

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:53 am 
Greater Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 am
Posts: 837
alex_greene wrote:
6. No official setting. No 3I means no grognards complaining about how the current version of the game is so different to all the other versions.


I don't mind the concept of an official setting per se, but I think that the OTU has become the tail that wags the dog. The OTU has some great features, but increasingly it looks very dated - it reflects the sensibilities and concerns of mainstream SF of the 1960s and early 1970s. And literary SF has moved on from the days when space opera was a dominated by the authors such as Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, E.C. Tubb, and A. Bertram Chandler. While these authors were great in there day, you can't incorporate any modern space opera influences without incurring the wrath of those grognards who see themselves as the guardians of canon. Where are the influences of more recent space opera authors such as Iain M. Banks, Neal Asher, Peter F. Hamilton, Alatair Reynolds, Stephen Baxter, Jon Scalzi, Richard Morgan, John Meaney, Charles Stross, Walter Jon Williams, etc.

One approach that might be viable would be to develop a new campaign setting based in the Fourth Imperium that reflects contemporary SF influences in the way that the Third Imperium reflected the influences of the 1970s when Larry Niven's Known Space stories were cutting edge stuff....


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:59 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:29 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: UK
Prime_Evil wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
6. No official setting. No 3I means no grognards complaining about how the current version of the game is so different to all the other versions.
One approach that might be viable would be to develop a new campaign setting based in the Fourth Imperium that reflects contemporary SF influences in the way that the Third Imperium reflected the influences of the 1970s when Larry Niven's Known Space stories were cutting edge stuff....
I think that was the point, unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:31 pm 
Mongoose

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:08 pm
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"No official setting"... I still have the majority of the GDW and Games Workshop-licensed books I bought back in the 80s, and the 3rd Imperium is a pervasive element of almost all of them. I'm not just talking about the 'Library Data' books, either. :(

So, no official setting? That's a possible avenue, but... you'll still have the grognards screaming blue murder and you'll have others complaining that they don't want to have to spend time & effort creating every last aspect of a campaign setting from the ground up. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:22 pm 
Greater Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 am
Posts: 837
alex_greene wrote:
Prime_Evil wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
6. No official setting. No 3I means no grognards complaining about how the current version of the game is so different to all the other versions.
One approach that might be viable would be to develop a new campaign setting based in the Fourth Imperium that reflects contemporary SF influences in the way that the Third Imperium reflected the influences of the 1970s when Larry Niven's Known Space stories were cutting edge stuff....
I think that was the point, unfortunately.


I find it interesting that many grognards are willing to admit some contemporary SF influences from American military SF (e.g. David Weber) - provided that the political stance is conservative or vaguely libertarian. However, they are often uncomfortable with alternative political structures such as the anarchist utopia of Iain Bank's Culture or the demarchist republic of Alastair Reynolds. The idea that technological change and social change are often linked is vaguely threatening, as is the notion that the future might not be dominated by Western cultural norms. The feudal culture of the 3I is reassuring not only because it represents a static political and social order that reflects classic SF tropes, but also because it offers a cultural model recognizably based upon Western history - Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Arabic, Russian, and Latino influences on mainstream imperial culture are conspicuous by their absence. One of the most interesting features of literary SF since the cyberpunk boom of the 1980's is the increasing prominence of non-Western viewpoints. However, such viewpoints are very rare in the OTU and are often reduced to cariacatures when they do appear. Where are the blacks of the Third Imperium? How often do non-Western characters appear in the artwork of Traveller books? Why isn't there a strong Asian influence on Imperial culture given the demographics of Earth before contact with the Vilani? Why is the official language of the third imperium Anglic rather a descendent of Mandarin or Hindi?


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:25 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 593
Nuclear Fridge Magnet wrote:
and you'll have others complaining that they don't want to have to spend time & effort creating every last aspect of a campaign setting from the ground up. :roll:


A major reason that that is the case is because Marc is a technophobe. He simply won't allow computerized GM aides for "universe creation" to be marketed. Someone will end up designing a Traveller like game using the SRD WITH software And that will be that.


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:29 pm 
Greater Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 am
Posts: 837
Nuclear Fridge Magnet wrote:
"No official setting"... I still have the majority of the GDW and Games Workshop-licensed books I bought back in the 80s, and the 3rd Imperium is a pervasive element of almost all of them. I'm not just talking about the 'Library Data' books, either. :(

So, no official setting? That's a possible avenue, but... you'll still have the grognards screaming blue murder and you'll have others complaining that they don't want to have to spend time & effort creating every last aspect of a campaign setting from the ground up. :roll:


I think that the setting material should be moved into a separate book. I've still got many of the LBB's and my impression is that the importance of the 3rd Imperium setting to the rules grew over time...until the OTU and the Traveller brand were largely synonymous by the time that Megatraveller was published. I think that offering the OTU as one possible setting that you could use the ruleset in is a good idea, with a full product line supporting it!


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:33 pm 
Greater Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:41 am
Posts: 837
F33D wrote:
Nuclear Fridge Magnet wrote:
and you'll have others complaining that they don't want to have to spend time & effort creating every last aspect of a campaign setting from the ground up. :roll:


A major reason that that is the case is because Marc is a technophobe. He simply won't allow computerized GM aides for "universe creation" to be marketed. Someone will end up designing a Traveller like game using the SRD WITH software And that will be that.


It's a pity. Traveller still offers some of the most elegant rule subsytems ever devised for an RPG and many of them lend themselves to automation. Hopefully Mongoose will update the OGC from the rules when a new edition of the core rulebook is released and we will see a broader range of third-party settings emerge - along with some software aids.


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 Post subject: Re: What would you do IF...?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:33 pm 
Banded Mongoose

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm
Posts: 361
Location: Place of Indians, US
F33D wrote:
Nuclear Fridge Magnet wrote:
and you'll have others complaining that they don't want to have to spend time & effort creating every last aspect of a campaign setting from the ground up. :roll:


A major reason that that is the case is because Marc is a technophobe. He simply won't allow computerized GM aides for "universe creation" to be marketed. Someone will end up designing a Traveller like game using the SRD WITH software And that will be that.



No...Traveller has all sorts of computerized aids, just not mongoose; where have you been? H&E will make whole sectors (and Traveller map will print you a pdf), not quite as good as the real thing though and it is ancient; T5 already has a shipyard, animal encounter and system generator in the works. A setting, esp one 30+ years old with a dton of official and user made stuff, will sell better than having nothing and expecting a GM to do a ton of work.

After everything has been changed, why still call it Traveller? It sounds like being a coattail rider at some point. Note that all the players in my campaign, like that mong is so close to CT. Starting with other traits and one starts essentially another game system, like Thousand Suns or Diaspora, but also don't be surprised if it is not being played, the reason I moved to mong was because there are more and more mong players, and it's not just me, we GM's and players talk about the systems amongst ourselves.

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