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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:32 am 
Chief Mongoose

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:17 pm
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Location: Sonthofen / Germany
F33D wrote:
They already exist.

Of course, international law is a slow process, and new types
of weapons rarely get banned or regulated before they were
invented, introduced and used. Still, the intent to regulate or
even ban autonomous weapon systems is there, and a law will
probably follow in a decade or so.


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:52 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
Where did the players get those skills. Running the small ships of course.

AIs at tech 15/16 require a vast, powerful and very expensive computer network to exist within.

Putting a Mcr30+ computer in a small ship that only costs Mcr50 is a massive waste. On that Mcr1,000 super liner the computer costs are just part of the package.

Those tech 12 sub 1000Dton craft that make the minor runs, visit the frontier worlds and go places the big ships don't bother will be hopelessly out of date in the core or when alongside those tech 15 mega ships. The core world crews will be far more passenger relations teams and far less technical. They will, of course, look down on those rustic frontier types with worn and grubby jump suits and tool belts.

After all what sort of core world engineer actually gets his hands dirty, that is what drones and remotes are for.

I can see the crew on the advanced ships having Admin, Steward, Liaison, Diplomacy etc and enough of the actual skies to be able to talk the talk. A ship’s captain with pilot 0, navigator 0, Admin 2, Diplomacy 2, Liaison 1, Steward 2. The chief engineer with Admin 2, Engineer 0, Remote Operations 2, streetwise 1. The bulk of the crew being stewards of various types.

The free traders, the Tramp merchants, the Frontier yokels etc have to do the actual work and so have the actual skills. Even the tools of the trade may be lacking on the big ships. Need a tool kit on that mega liner, send a repair drone since it has all the tools built in. Drones out of action, grab a crow bar and open up a drone for the screw driver you need.

The impact of this is something we talked about a lot at Terra/Sol. Advancing technology has a massive impact on where the Meat fits in and in many cases it simply doesn’t. High tech ships have crew to look after the meat cargo not to run the ship. High tech factories and manufacturing process use drones to harvest the raw materials, process them in automatic plants, make the bits and assemble them in robotic production lines and ship them to customers computer controlled homes using drone delivery vehicles.

Hand crafted becomes a mark of quality and expense, “Anyone can own a nano built chair from an AI factory but that rug is hand woven by human craftsman and it cost a hefty pile of credits I can tell you”.

Without having people in jobs there is no income, no commerce, no market for the sellers. You can end up with a technological Utopia or a living hell where the AIs have human pets.

There are people flying ships because they are operating in the cracks of the system. They are dealing with loads to small for the AI run super ships to bother with. They deal with customers who do not or will not deal with the AIs or Hypercorps.

There is nothing wrong with AI ships. However before doing that in YTU consider the overall implications. Since Drones, Robots and AIs can do the work faster, more accurately and more safely than the Meat then why bother with the Meat.

In T/S the Orion Confederation has 30% of the population identified as Dolee’s. They live on a citizen’s stipend and will never have a job; multiple generations of them have never had jobs simply because there are no jobs for them. Something like another third of the population will have jobs that pay about the same as the stipend but have better benefits. Many of these involve no real skills, they are make work for which no real skills are involved. Shift supervisors in an AI factory for example. The AI’s deal with any problems before the Human supervisors are even aware of them but have the Humans authorise them because they are the supervisors.

The remainder of the working population have actual skills that are in demand and as such earn real incomes. When your verse is a capitalist commerce based type there needs to be people with money to buy what you are selling, it may be that many of them get that money from the state or that the cubicle drones only have jobs because the mega corps get tax breaks for employing people. It doesn’t matter where they get money from, all that matters is that they have money to buy and sell stuff so your players can trade. Otherwise you are playing Star Trek, “Buy your cargo, what a quaint idea, we Humans have evolved past the crude money based commerce systems of the past”.

A large chunk of GDP is put towards making sure that every citizen has some form of income, a home and food. This allows them to buy the goods the AI factories are making which generate the tax incomes the governments need to run and keep the whole capitalist system turning.

There is nothing wrong with pure AI ships, just consider how far it goes when you replace people with AIs or VIs in all the risky or boring jobs and then the routine jobs and then most of the other jobs as well.

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:07 pm 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:46 pm
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Quote:
Of course, international law is a slow process, and new types of weapons rarely get banned or regulated before they were invented, introduced and used. Still, the intent to regulate or even ban autonomous weapon systems is there, and a law will probably follow in a decade or so.


It already has, to a degree. I've seen several papers make good arguments that an autonomous weapon (i.e. one which can detect someone and attack without a man-in-the-loop) falls under the definitions used in land-mine and submunition treaties.

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:44 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 575
rust wrote:
F33D wrote:
They already exist.

Of course, international law is a slow process, and new types
of weapons rarely get banned or regulated before they were
invented, introduced and used. Still, the intent to regulate or
even ban autonomous weapon systems is there, and a law will
probably follow in a decade or so.



The U.S. Senate would never ratify it. And, even if they did, the Pres. of the U.S. can unilaterally negate under U.S. Constitution at any time. So, it would be a meaningless piece of paper.


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:09 pm 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:46 pm
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Location: Wildly Variable
They will just pointedly not sign it in the first place.
Note that the US refused to sign the Ottowa (Land Mines) or Dublin (Cluster Bombs) treaties.

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:22 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 575
locarno24 wrote:
They will just pointedly not sign it in the first place.
Note that the US refused to sign the Ottowa (Land Mines) or Dublin (Cluster Bombs) treaties.


Yep, forgot about those. Also, unmanned, autonomous fighting vehicles (air, sea, land & space) are already part of a well funded & long term mil strat for the U.S.


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:51 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:46 pm
Posts: 2483
Location: Wildly Variable
Unmanned. Not autonomous.
This is the difference above - the drones used by the US, which I agree they would never get rid of, are essentially glorified remotes. They're no different to a remote weapons station on a hummer, just with a bigger 'air gap' between the gun and the man with the X-Box pad.

An autonomous weapon - what I was referring to above - is one that can identify a target and take the decision to fire on its own without bothering to ask (or even inform) a man in the loop (hence why they fall under landmine legislation). The US doesn't use many - if any - such weapons. About the only one I can think of is the Phalanx CIWS.

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:51 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:46 am
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A number of years ago, I wrote http://www.freelancetraveller.com/featu ... ptune.html to address the perceived problem of jump being a week-long non-event. One of the 'side effects' of the rules presented was that unmanned jumps Just Don't Work.

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:42 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 575
locarno24 wrote:
Unmanned. Not autonomous.


No, AUTONOMOUS.


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:17 pm 
Cosmic Mongoose

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:38 am
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern England
F33D wrote:
No, AUTONOMOUS.

Um... no. The weapon carrying drones currently in use cannot fire on a target without human interaction. They may well be able to manoeuvre and acquire targets autonomously, but its still a human pulling the trigger.
The phalanx (and other CIWS) does indeed fire without human intervention... but then they're only activated in engagements :P

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:30 pm 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 575
barnest2 wrote:
F33D wrote:
No, AUTONOMOUS.

Um... no. The weapon carrying drones currently in use


I'm talking FUTURE deployment. I watched a test of an Army AUTONOMOUS fighting vehicle recently. AF & Navy also have air attack autonomous vehicles in testing right now.


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:36 am 
Cosmic Mongoose

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:38 am
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern England
Links please?
Because I highly doubt any weapon systen in the near future will be able to fire without human interference...

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:51 pm 
Mongoose Prime

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Posts: 21152
Location: Bristol, UK
THe key philosophical difference is between "able to" and "allowed to"

For instance, the CIWS is allowed to once given permission, as are many other weapon systems in development. Once they are allowed to they are able to at will.

It's only a small step from there to them not needing to be allowed to.

LBH

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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:51 am 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 1:13 pm
Posts: 575
barnest2 wrote:
Links please?
Because I highly doubt any weapon systen in the near future will be able to fire without human interference...



Sorry, can't link what I watched in person. In reality, 99% of the REALLY good stuff is not in the interwebtubes. :D


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 Post subject: Re: unmanned jump ships (Q for GMs)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:20 am 
Chief Mongoose

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:17 pm
Posts: 5746
Location: Sonthofen / Germany
Perhaps we should take a look at the official sources for the
development and use of autonomous weapon systems, like
for example the US Department of Defense, Defense Science
Board, Task Force Report: The Role of Autonomy in DoD Sy-
stems, published in July 2012.

The part important for our discussion is this here, from page 1
of the Executive Summary:
Quote:
Autonomy is a capability (or a set of capabilities) that enables a particular action of a system
to be automatic or, within programmed boundaries, “self-governing.” Unfortunately, the word
“autonomy” often conjures images in the press and the minds of some military leaders of
computers making independent decisions and taking uncontrolled action. While the reality of
what autonomy is and can do is quite different from those conjured images, these concerns
are—in some cases—limiting its adoption. It should be made clear that all autonomous systems
are supervised by human operators at some level, and autonomous systems’ software embodies
the designed limits on the actions and decisions delegated to the computer. Instead of viewing
autonomy as an intrinsic property of an unmanned vehicle in isolation, the design and operation
of autonomous systems needs to be considered in terms of human-system collaboration.


[And now I hope that quoting this paper is perfectly legal ... :? ]


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