Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

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F33D
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Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby F33D » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:24 pm

I've changed the attribute mod on this skill from Dex to Int. Manned turrets with people spinning around inside them went by the boards in the 1940's. On a ship the "gunners" would be ensconced deep inside the ship in a CIC area. This isn't a hand/eye skill but an intelligence related skill.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby dragoner » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:00 am

Now that is opening a can of worms. What about Pilot, or Initiative? A thousand years ago, eye hand coordination may have been key to drawing steel and running the other guy through, but now it's all about assessment of the situation, it should be Int. Gunner, Pilot, all sounds like a cascade off computer, how well you know the software packages for the task, once again Int. Today and I'm sure tomorrow, Int will say how good you do a lot of things, replacing Str when it was just good to be a walking tank in the past, that day ended with guns.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby far-trader » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:25 am

Next thing you'll be saying is a computer can shoot (or pilot for that matter) much better and faster than a human...

:twisted:
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F33D
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby F33D » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:49 am

dragoner wrote:Now that is opening a can of worms. What about Pilot, or Initiative? A thousand years ago, eye hand coordination may have been key to drawing steel and running the other guy through, but now it's all about assessment of the situation, it should be Int.
In my game, Star ship pilot uses Int as its attribute. Only "grunt" type skills use physical attributes as mods. I dumped Soc (don't use 3I setting) and added Willpower (Wil) as a characteristic.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby F33D » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:09 am

far-trader wrote:Next thing you'll be saying is a computer can shoot (or pilot for that matter) much better and faster than a human...

:twisted:
8)
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby dragoner » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:59 am

far-trader wrote:Next thing you'll be saying is a computer can shoot (or pilot for that matter) much better and faster than a human...

:twisted:
But without a human it would lack direction and oeurve! What would they do without us?

:mrgreen:
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby dragoner » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:02 am

F33D wrote:
dragoner wrote:Now that is opening a can of worms. What about Pilot, or Initiative? A thousand years ago, eye hand coordination may have been key to drawing steel and running the other guy through, but now it's all about assessment of the situation, it should be Int.
In my game, Star ship pilot uses Int as its attribute. Only "grunt" type skills use physical attributes as mods. I dumped Soc (don't use 3I setting) and added Willpower (Wil) as a characteristic.
That's cool, I have thought of changing some of those stat/task bonuses as well, pilot maneuver and dex really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What do you use wil for?
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby AndrewW » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:37 am

dragoner wrote:But without a human it would lack direction and oeurve! What would they do without us?
Have an advanced society that uses logic.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby Burocrate » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:06 am

AndrewW wrote:
dragoner wrote:But without a human it would lack direction and oeurve! What would they do without us?
Have an advanced society that uses logic.
But without the Blood and Guts of sentients how will they ever get the Glory?!!!
Travellers: they'll break you ship and then ruin your best laid plans.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:53 pm

Go back and watch the original Buck Rogers movie (or pilot) from the 1970s.

In that movie, Buck joins with the Earth Defense force to fight off the Draconians. The humans sit in their fighters and when they get attacked, they activate their combat computer, that takes them through a series of evasive actions. Unfortunately, those evasive actions are easy to predict by another combat computer. Buck ended up saving the day because he used unpredictable moves.

Now, that is a TV show of course, but it does give you a justification for the Pilot or Gunner. Human imagination combined with computer reflexes.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby Nathan Brazil » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:33 pm

Funny you mention Buck Rogers and advantages by not having computers. In the Buck Rogers XXVc game, Buck's .45 pistol had bonuses to hit because, being ordinary bullets, they were "too dumb" to be thrown off by ECM, unlike the "smart" shells from rocket pistols of that future time.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby locarno24 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:57 pm

In my game, Star ship pilot uses Int as its attribute. Only "grunt" type skills use physical attributes as mods. I dumped Soc (don't use 3I setting) and added Willpower (Wil) as a characteristic.
I'm not sure. Personally I consider DEX to also include mental, as well as physical, reflexes (if only because they don't belong anywhere else and they're important); for example a point defence gunner - trying to oversee a fire control computer keeping track of dozens of incoming missiles and prioritizing threats for counter-fire - definitely needs reflexes as much as intelligence. The fact that he's not firing a fifty-cal at the missiles over iron sights doesn't mean that an intelligent but less quick-thinking individual might not be overwhelmed, computer support or no.

Planning an offensive salvo should be more akin to a tactics check, so I agree with you on that front.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby F33D » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:09 pm

dragoner wrote:
F33D wrote:
dragoner wrote:Now that is opening a can of worms. What about Pilot, or Initiative? A thousand years ago, eye hand coordination may have been key to drawing steel and running the other guy through, but now it's all about assessment of the situation, it should be Int.
In my game, Star ship pilot uses Int as its attribute. Only "grunt" type skills use physical attributes as mods. I dumped Soc (don't use 3I setting) and added Willpower (Wil) as a characteristic.
That's cool, I have thought of changing some of those stat/task bonuses as well, pilot maneuver and dex really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What do you use wil for?
I use will for things like intimidating, bluffing, making checks under extreme mental/emotion pressure, bargaining, carouse, deception. Also, is a PC disciplined to stick to a long term self training program. If I introduce psionics it will be the attribute that matters.

It is the force of personalty. VERY important for leaders, politicians, etc.
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby phavoc » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:13 pm

Keep in mind that computer programs will pick the most logical, highest % chance to hit attack patterns.

Humans, being illogical and stupid, will pick what they think is best. It's the same reason that Kirk could be Spock in chess sometimes - he picked illogical ways to win. That and he cheats, which computers don't. :P
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Re: Ship "Gunner" renamed WSO

Postby F33D » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:12 pm

phavoc wrote:Keep in mind that computer programs will pick the most logical, highest % chance to hit attack patterns.

Humans, being illogical and stupid, will pick what they think is best. It's the same reason that Kirk could be Spock in chess sometimes - he picked illogical ways to win. That and he cheats, which computers don't. :P

That's where the "gunnery" skill comes in. [Within the spherical possibility, where is the enemy ship going to be? The sphere size is determined by the distance from the target (sensors being light speed) + (the G rating of the target). Passive sensors are twice as fast (one way to firing ship) as active sensors (firing ship to target & back to firing ship).]

It is a thinking, guessing, tactical game.

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