Traveller TNE?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby GypsyComet » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:18 am

GJD wrote:
Mongoose is in the position that they could, if they chose to, publish a rebellion, hard times, Virus Night, Reformation Coalition and 12XX book, and still carry on supporting CT, as well as 2300AD, the 2000AD titles, Hammers Slammers and so on. It just becomes another setting book. If you don't like Virus, stick with the CT books.

G.
Agreed. The timeline is already set. There are few if any surprises in the history at this point. The Rebellion Haters have the GURPS Traveller variant to play in, though it has been stated that the variant still crashes and TNE lies at the end of both lines.

One of the thing you notice once you've seen enough editions is that each edition, with the exception of the CT/MGT pair and the Hero license version, is set in a different part of the timeline and a different set of SF tropes. You pick your era of play according to the type of stories you want to tell in-game.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby 2330ADUSA1 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:21 am

You know so far MGT has rewritten every needed book one at a time and expanded on each one greatly. Now I own it all, and I have no complaint in buying MGT's version of anything.I turn and look at my library and look at the books (60) of them that I have bought so far for this version and am quite happy with it. I hope Mongoose Pub continues to carry on as they are. Soo they will totally cross over into pure undone areas and I believe they will greatly expand the collective core of this game.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby far-trader » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:55 am

A little off topic but...
2330ADUSA1 wrote:...I hope Mongoose Pub continues to carry on as they are. Soon they will totally cross over into pure undone areas and I believe they will greatly expand the collective core of this game.
I was called an optimist in another thread here, and while I have hoped the same as you I think you have me beat on optimism here. I'm very much afraid that Mongoose will just exhaust the back-pile of yet to be copied CT material (is there much left?) and find themselves lost for where to go next and what to add to the core Traveller (you know what I mean ;) ) experience. If they even have, or ever had, any plans along those lines. I don't recall hearing anything, but I'm also not following that closely so I could have missed it.

I think it more likely they will expand into new license lines for their Traveller rules where they can get them. I expect to see (pure speculation examples) MgT Space: 1999; MgT Mass Effect; MgT Battlestar Galatica; MgT Babylon 5... etc. before seeing fresh new core Traveller material. I could be wrong. I'd like to be wrong. I don't think I am though :(

p.s. no idea if some of my quick speculation above hit actual license prospects or not, or even if any of them are that desirable or available, but I do expect there are licenses in Mongoose's sights for Traveller adaptation
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby daryen » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:31 am

Wil Mireu wrote:I would like to see a version of the OTU moved further ahead in time. Go past 1248, explore what lies beyond.
Why bother with that? 1248 sets up a Fourth Imperium that will likely exist and expand for its 1000 years. Going farther than that becomes, for all intents and purposes, a brand new setting with no relationship to what came before. Quite frankly, if you are going to do that, just junk the OTU and make a new setting.

Instead of reviving dead OTU eras, why not learn from what the OTU did right and what it did wrong and built a "Mongoose Traveller Universe", or MGTU? It would still use 100% Traveller rules (still have jump drive as the FTL system; still have an empire with nobility; etc.). It would be very similar, in some aspects, to the OTU. But it would not be the OTU. Instead, it would be something new and something wholly Mongoose. They could even make sure the various major (and published minor) races are present and accounted for, but in new and interesting ways.

That would make way more sense that trying to extend the OTU into the 1300+ time frame.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Wil Mireu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:09 am

daryen wrote:
Wil Mireu wrote:I would like to see a version of the OTU moved further ahead in time. Go past 1248, explore what lies beyond.
Why bother with that? 1248 sets up a Fourth Imperium that will likely exist and expand for its 1000 years. Going farther than that becomes, for all intents and purposes, a brand new setting with no relationship to what came before. Quite frankly, if you are going to do that, just junk the OTU and make a new setting.
That's the general idea, yes :). The OTU is pretty much being forbidden to flourish and evolve in new directions because... to be honest, I don't really know why. Fear of offending the grognards? Knowledge that there will always be people who will buy the same material over and over again? I don't know. I was happy when 1248 became a reality though and finally gave us something new.

Instead of reviving dead OTU eras, why not learn from what the OTU did right and what it did wrong and built a "Mongoose Traveller Universe", or MGTU? It would still use 100% Traveller rules (still have jump drive as the FTL system; still have an empire with nobility; etc.). It would be very similar, in some aspects, to the OTU. But it would not be the OTU. Instead, it would be something new and something wholly Mongoose. They could even make sure the various major (and published minor) races are present and accounted for, but in new and interesting ways.
A 1300+ setting would still use the Traveller rules, and have Jump Drive as the FTL system (it isn't as if that changed in 1200/1248), and may still have empires with nobility, etc. It would be very similar in some aspects to the OTU. But it would also be different. It could have AI nations, it could have a post-Zhodani and Imperial nation, it could have Vargr and K'Kree and Aslan and Solomani and Hivers running around, but evolved in interesting ways. Maybe the K'Kree have become entirely insular and rejected technology. Maybe all the surviving human nations united under one banner. Who knows?

That would make way more sense that trying to extend the OTU into the 1300+ time frame.
As far as I can see it would be almost completely identical to trying to extend the OTU into the 1300+ timeframe. The only real difference is that 1300+ has some real chronological continuity with what came before it, while your idea reboots everything in the 1100 era.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby daryen » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:59 am

Wil Mireu wrote:
That would make way more sense that trying to extend the OTU into the 1300+ time frame.
As far as I can see it would be almost completely identical to trying to extend the OTU into the 1300+ timeframe. The only real difference is that 1300+ has some real chronological continuity with what came before it, while your idea reboots everything in the 1100 era.
Nope, my idea is way more freeing. The reason is that no matter what year you pick, you are stuck with the astrography. You are stuck with where the various races are placed and how things are spaced.

Let me explain it this way. Let's assume you want to use a form of the Spinward Marches as your basis for this new setting. OK, that's fine, and it sounds like your assertion is correct. However, what you can do if you pitch the OTU is stick the capital of the main human empire in the adjacent sector to trailing of the main sector. You can move the Hivers and K'kree much closer so that you don't have to choose which major races will be found, but can use them ALL. As a corollary, you can massively condense space so that Relevant Space is just nine sectors (our new Spinward Marches, plus the eight surrounding sectors), rather than 30 or whatever. You can also modify your new Spinward Marches to change UWPs, world locations, whatever is necessary.

Also, who says it needs to be the equivalent of 1100? Maybe the max TL is 12 (or whatever magic number you want to use). You can do whatever you want.

Here is an example of what I am thinking. (This doesn't have to be the result. It is simply something I came up with off the top of my head to explain the idea.) Let's go ahead and use the Spinward Marches as the basis. Let's just keep it virtually unmodified. (I would modify it, but this lets us ignore that issue for now.) I will use the existing names of the surrounding sectors as they exist in the OTU, but obviously they would likely change. Despite keeping the names, everything about the surrounding sectors changes.

Deneb is dominated by the Imperium. The Imperium is a bit less than a sector in size, and it is displaced a bit spinward and rimward, meaning it occupies portions of four actual sectors. Gvurrdon is Vargr dominated, with Zhodani presence on the spinward edge. The Zhodani are about the same size as the Imperium; its heart is in Ziaf... with small pieces in Gvurrdon, Foreven, and the Marches. Foreven contains the K'kree, who stretch back spinward somewhat. The Aslan are in Trojan Reach, and also slide back spinward, meaning the Aslan and K'kree have a long, violent border region. Across Reft are the Hivers. They have a path across the Rift, and have settled worlds in the Rift. They act as peaceful traders (but we know the truth).

This allows you to have most of the neat features of the OTU, but repackaged to be smaller, more contained, and much more manageable. It is possible for characters to meet any of the major races without having to leave the Spinward Marches. The major empires are still large, but are much smaller than in the OTU. And none of this can be done in the OTU, as the astrography is set in stone. But, in this new setting, anything is possible.

Or, if you really want to go nuts, make a true recovery setting. The largest of the various empires is not quite two subsectors in size. There are multiple human empires, but also empires for the various major races, too. The leading TL is 12, but there are relic artifacts that can range up to TL 15 and 16. What is the difference between a 1300+ OTU and this? The fact that all of the major races can be present if we so choose. We are not limited by the massive setting of the OTU.

How about this: Take Reaver's Deep. Push the Imperial border back so that the Imperium, Solomani, and Aslan have no more than a subsector's worth of worlds. Leave the existing pocket empires. Define that the Aslan, Solomani, and Imperium are each a little bigger than a half a sector sized empire each. The result is a great setting of small empires that is familiar, but let's the various small empires have more influence and not just exist at the whims of the bigger empires. Sure, any of the big empires could crush a given pocket empire. But, at their minimal size, it would require so much effort they would become weakened and vulnerable to one of the other two rivals. It becomes a true cold war setting, rather than the artificially generated one. And, if you want, you can still throw in Zhodani, Hivers, and/or K'kree because you can define where they are coming from. They aren't automatically excluded from the setting because you can freely move them to where they can be useful.

That is what I am talking about. Use the best of the OTU, but abandon its weaknesses and limitations.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Wil Mireu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:16 am

daryen wrote:Nope, my idea is way more freeing. The reason is that no matter what year you pick, you are stuck with the geography. You are stuck with where the various races are placed and how things are spaced.
What geography? By 1300, the geography is completely different! (have you actually read 1248?).
Also, who says it needs to be the equivalent of 1100? Maybe the max TL is 12 (or whatever magic number you want to use). You can do whatever you want.
It has been done though. T4 and Interstellar Wars were set in earlier eras with lower tech. And different geography. And again, I note that you are using examples set in the present or past of the setting, and avoiding the OTU's future. Why the aversion to it? Are you afraid of facing the unknown road stretching ahead of you into the setting's future? :P

Here is an example of what I am thinking. (This doesn't have to be the result. It is simply something I came up with off the top of my head to explain the idea.) Let's go ahead and use the Spinward Marches as the basis. Let's just keep it virtually unmodified. (I would modify it, but this lets us ignore that issue for now.) I will use the existing names of the surrounding sectors as they exist in the OTU, but obviously they would likely change. Despite keeping the names, everything about the surrounding sectors changes.
Alternate Traveller Universes (which is really what you're describing) are a dime a dozen though. What would set this apart from any other? Why would anyone be interested in that when they have their own ATUs already?

Don't get me wrong, I am not averse to the general concept of an ATU or rebooted OTU, I just don't think it would be particularly viable as "the official setting".
This allows you to have most of the neat features of the OTU, but repackaged to be smaller, more contained, and much more manageable. It is possible for characters to mean any of the major races without having to leave the Spinward Marches. The major empires are still large, but are much smaller than in the OTU. And none of this can be done in the OTU, as the astrography is set in stone. But, in this new setting, anything is possible.
The astrography really isn't "set in stone" though. After 1248, the astrography could be very very different to what came before. There may not be a single human empire anymore. The surviving K'Kree could migrate away from their blasted worlds. The Vargr could expand. Humans could expand more towards the Zhodani corner of space. Maybe the surviving alien races mingle more closely.

In a 1300+ setting, anything really is possible. You don't know the future. You don't have a prescribed chronicle of events that you know have to happen. You don't have to rehash things either - you can have alien books and sector books that are completely new material, and you can introduce new technologies too!
That is what I am talking about. Use the best of the OTU, but abandon its weaknesses and limitations.
I would argue that this is exactly what TNE did - it used the best of the OTU, and swept away its weaknesses and limitations ;). And yet (I think it was you that claimed this earlier), it proved to be rather polarizing!
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:58 am

A 1300+ setting would still use the Traveller rules, and have Jump Drive as the FTL system (it isn't as if that changed in 1200/1248), and may still have empires with nobility, etc. It would be very similar in some aspects to the OTU. But it would also be different. It could have AI nations, it could have a post-Zhodani and Imperial nation, it could have Vargr and K'Kree and Aslan and Solomani and Hivers running around, but evolved in interesting ways. Maybe the K'Kree have become entirely insular and rejected technology. Maybe all the surviving human nations united under one banner. Who knows?
For that matter, a -305,000 setting would also rock; covering the ancients and (ultimately) the final war. There's no problem with having humans, even pure-human cultures - different 'sons' went with different minion races (or indeed none), and with 400 to go at there's no shortage of different ways of doing things.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Captain Jonah » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:04 am

TNE or not what seems to be the focus of this topic is something new.

Something not the same 3rdI that we had in Classic and D20 and Gurps and at the beginning of MT and now in MongTrav.

The rebellion era cracked the mould and let a lot of new stuff leak out, TNE broke the mould, stamped on the bits then swept them up and used them to make a new mould.

Does the “Official” timeline advance, does it remain 05 forever. Do we advance to the FFW or do we advance to something completely new, a non cannon timeline. Gurps made it past the rebellion, can MongTrav make it past 1105.

Does new mean throwing away the 3rdI with its millstone of cannon and starting again, does new mean looking somewhere that doesn’t have a timeline so detailed we know what Duke Norris had for breakfast the day he first heard of the Zho attack that kicked of the war.

Interstellar wars went back a long way, D20 when back a shorter time, Gurps is a few years ahead of 1105, MT/Rebellion went past 1116, TNE went past 1200 and then we had 1248.

Where is there left to go. Do people want the comfortable 3rdI, a well known era, like a favourite chair that fits like a glove. Where the players and the ref know so much and can slide into an adventure with a minimum of brief. Do we want something post 1248 where the ref has to make up half his campaign because the new books don’t cover everything and where his players are squeaky and wet behind the ears.

Within the soft armchair of the 3rdI there is the promise of a focus on the other side of the Imperium. The Spinward marches have been covered in vast detail but the new books on the Solomani rim could lead to entire new campaigns and adventures set along the Rim. A geo political region covered in far less detail than the marches.

The Rim timeline is less detailed, less intensely covered. More room to add completely new stuff. A campaign, a timeline covering from say 1105 through to 1115 allows for a ten year campaign and a score or two of adventures which should keep people happy for a year or three real time. Forget the Zho and the Puppies, bring on the scheming Hivers or the expansionist younger sons of the Aslan or the intriques of life either side of the Solomani border.

Or relocate the adventures and add a campaign and timeline for the borders and client states facing the Kkree. Something done in D20 but not covered since.

There are vast areas not occupied by the major powers, the client states, the independent empires, the wilderness regions. Pirates of Drinax has an entire sector to play with where it can write in much of what is to be found since this is an area where detail is sketchy.

Going forward past 1248 re writes the map and the political landscape. It introduces new forms of life (Androids, AIs), it has new states, new worlds, new trade routes and vast wilderness areas to explore again. Even the old, over covered, Marches get a make over to go with the post rebellion survival, civil war and break up into major and minor factions.

I feel that there is room to bring in new or nearly new stuff even to Traveller’s 30+ years of cannon and heritage. Doing so requires walking the paths less Travelled or the paths not yet Travelled.

Call me an optimist or even foolish if you want. But I think it can be done
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby steelbrok » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:43 pm

daryen wrote:
Let me explain it this way. Let's assume you want to use a form of the Spinward Marches as your basis for this new setting. OK, that's fine, and it sounds like your assertion is correct. However, what you can do if you pitch the OTU is stick the capital of the main human empire in the adjacent sector to trailing of the main sector. You can move the Hivers and K'kree much closer so that you don't have to choose which major races will be found, but can use them ALL. As a corollary, you can massively condense space so that Relevant Space is just nine sectors (our new Spinward Marches, plus the eight surrounding sectors), rather than 30 or whatever. You can also modify your new Spinward Marches to change UWPs, world locations, whatever is necessary.
That's more or less MTU, the Zhos are to Spinward and coreward, the Aslan to Rimward, the K'kree to Coreward (they hold Gvourdon). The Droyne/Chirpers are scattered throughout the Marches (and beyond). Vargr were geneered by the Solomani rather than the Ancients and accompanied them to the stars (cannon fodder for Interstellar Wars). Once dominant in the Imperium the Solomani have recently lost out in a series of power struggles that nearly led to Civil War. The Hivers aided Cleon in rebuilding the Imperium to build an ally against the K'kree(similar to the role played in TNE).

Rather than alter UPPs simply change the meaqning of the government codes to make the Marches a real melting pot.

0 - Anarchy, no government
1 - Corporate (pick a Mega as the lead corporation for the world)
2 - Vargr (MGT for encounters, flavour etc)
3 - Hiver Co-operative (look forward to Mongoose's take on Hivers)
4 - Solomani (where are you hardback!)
5 - Geonee (mine heavily from MGT Sword worlds for encounters etc)
6 - Captured by Aslan ihatei (roll for Aslan government code)
7 - Balkanised (roll twice, likeley at war with each other)
8 - Vilani (using Darrian book for encounters etc)
9 - Direct Imperial rule (sort of Victorian, MGT core for encounters)
A - Zhodani
B - K'kree
C - Compact of Mora
D - Church of Stellar Divinity (Aztecs in Space (well sort of, add in some weird Psionics)

Mora: was going to go with a Matriarchy (sort of canonical but wondering wether to blend it with biotech (especially now we have that nice supplement for bio vehicles)

So yes, you can certainly use all of your races in the Marches for a very fun game

Edit: I forgot the Droyne (they make you forget)

An Amber zone means their is a Chirper presence on the world
A Red zone means a Droyne presence
Last edited by steelbrok on Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby daryen » Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:11 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:
daryen wrote:Nope, my idea is way more freeing. The reason is that no matter what year you pick, you are stuck with the geography. You are stuck with where the various races are placed and how things are spaced.
What geography? By 1300, the geography is completely different! (have you actually read 1248?).
Of course I have read 1248. I am extremely familiar with it, as I helped write it!

Geography/Astrography does not equal political borders. It means the placement of worlds. And whether you are looking at M0, 1105, 1128, 1202, or 1248, all of the world locations are the same, and all of the races are in the same places. So, there is no way that, for example, the Aslan and K'kree will ever directly interact. They flat out can't. Same with the Hivers and Zhodani. It is impossible because of how the stars are laid out in the OTU regardless of history. This is what I am talking about.

By completely redoing and condensing the astrography, you are able to actually use all of those races at the same time. That is what I am talking about.
I would argue that this is exactly what TNE did - it used the best of the OTU, and swept away its weaknesses and limitations ;). And yet (I think it was you that claimed this earlier), it proved to be rather polarizing!
But, again, even in TNE and 1248, you will never have the Zhodani and Aslan interact with the K'kree and Hivers in a meaningful way. (Yeah, in 1248 you get the epic battles, but that's it. The actual empires are totally isolated from each other.)

In fact, instead of using the Spinward Marches sector, you can use whatever sector that contained the RC and start with that. Then, bring in all of the other empires like I described in my first example. I don't care. But let me have a setting where I can interact with all of the major races instead of just one, two, or at most three of them. Give me all of them.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Wil Mireu » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:18 pm

daryen wrote:By completely redoing and condensing the astrography, you are able to actually use all of those races at the same time. That is what I am talking about.
Why is that so important though? That seems to be the only reason for your suggestion, and I just don't see why it's necessary or even why it's a good thing. IMO there are too many "big players" around anyway - I think it is better to only have two or three major races in a region at most.

I would agree that Charted Space is too big and could be "condensed", but that can be done with a smaller post-1300 polity.

The main factor driving a "future" setting would be that there are no retreads, no rehashes, no straitjacket constraints of "existing canon" or things that are "supposed" to happen in the timeline. And it moves that timeline forward so that things are unknown and exciting again. I don't want a rewind or reboot of Traveller, I want to see more of its future.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby daryen » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:39 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:
daryen wrote:By completely redoing and condensing the astrography, you are able to actually use all of those races at the same time. That is what I am talking about.
Why is that so important though? That seems to be the only reason for your suggestion, and I just don't see why it's necessary or even why it's a good thing. IMO there are too many "big players" around anyway - I think it is better to only have two or three major races in a region at most.

I would agree that Charted Space is too big and could be "condensed", but that can be done with a smaller post-1300 polity.
If you "condense" the setting with a post-1300 polity, then you have effectively jettisoned major races from the game. So, if you focus on the Spinward Marches, as your area of focus is (by your statement) condensed, you have jettisoned the K'kree, Hivers, and Solomani. If you focus on the RC/FL, then you, by definition jettison the Vargr, Zhodani, and (probably) Aslan. I don't like that.

I want a setting that is highly condensed and includes at least the option for the various major races. And they don't all have to be major players. I have no problem with the Aslan being reduced down to a nascent, growing pocket empire, and have the Hivers be mostly "off-map" except for some frontier colonies and envoys.

BTW, the other thing my suggestion does is allow for the reworking of important planets, too. In my hypothetical Spinward Marches setting, Capital is in Deneb; Zhodane is in Ziaf....; the Aslan homeworld (sorry, forgot the name) is in Trojan Reach; the K'kree homeworld is in Foreven. Lair is moved to Gvurrdon. (The Hivers stay off-map, but are close to Reft, not six+ sectors away.) I imply that the Imperium, Zhodani, and off-map Hivers are major players. How major the others are is up to how the setting evolves and develops. The important thing is not that they are all major. The important thing is that they are all there. Doing your solution by definition means you effectively jettison major races from the game. My recommendation does not.

(And remember that my Spinward Marches example is just that: an example. Maybe the Zhodani are an upstart power. Maybe the Imperium is just getting started. Maybe the Aslan or Vargr are widespread and hostile. The point of the example is not that it should be used, but to simply show what I mean and what can be done.)

Also, I don't require a reduced 1100 Imperium. It can be any kind of semi-feudal empire (though it probably will still be called "Imperium"). Change it up some. I don't care. The point is to condense and contract space so things are more manageable, and then bring everything closer to allow for accessibility.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Somebody » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:05 pm

Actually there is a lot of stuff Mongoose could do in the OTU

+ Antares Sektor and the Julian Concordat

This is a sector where we have a strong but non-threatening power and a number of client states between it and the 3I. The two have a turbulent history with the Concordat delivering a mean kick to the Imperiums nether regions. Some details already exist, some interesting hooks (The ArchDuke is a Doggie<<<Vagr) Stuff for 2-3 Sourcebooks, maybe one in the current times (Smuggler, Spys etc. without the "Cold War" Feeling of SolRim and Ragheads) and one during the war period

+ Re-Visit Gateway Domain

Not sure where the copyright is but Gateway is another nice setting. The 3I is "one of the players" not THE PLAYER

+ Reavers Deep

The space between the real humans and the Kitties has little detail. We know some pocket empires exist. We know the Aslan are resonably "pro 3I". And the Terranians are close by. Another nice place for 3I, Hierat and Confederation to let "him and you fight" and to play the "great game"

+ Dallas<<<Dynasty 2

This time as OTU material, not generic. Something like GT "Nobles" but with different "lenses" (Dark 3I, Bright 3I) and material for adventures in the core section and high society

+ Hard Times

While I agree that a solution must be found for at least some of the 3Is potential enemies (Solies and Zhos are contained, Hivers are passiv but Aslan Ithahei and KKree must be handled) the basic "Hard Times" setting is workable for some time. At least until the possible enemies realize that an attack on a 3I remnant will not trigger a re-unification. Push the "finish" back 10-20 years and give some more material on the cores/controlled regions to bring out more of the contrast

=====

As for TNE: I liked it. Colllaps and reboot. Some of it is cheesy (StarVikings) and some a bit overdone (Vampires) but the general concept is workable. I would put Virus in 1200 where the Ancients are IMTU (waaaay back in the dark, dusty cupboard in the cellar) and drop the "Lords of Thunder" from 1248 but most ist workable.

And I love my 3I BIIIG
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby 2330ADUSA1 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:30 pm

What I would like to see is the Rebellion happen, BUT a clone/double of Stephen was killed and the 3Imp splits in 3-4 parts/factions and fights it out. Go into deep details about what happens in many battles accross the former battle areas of the 3Imp. Heck depending on the number of factions, they could make a resource book for each faction for each year following the battles from the perspective of the specific faction it is written for. Heck they could even expand on specific battles and create great details for the systems and forces used and fought within those battles. They could add in all sorts of sub plots and events also happening within that same region while the battles raged and etc.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:04 am

2330ADUSA1 wrote:What I would like to see is the Rebellion happen, BUT a clone/double of Stephen was killed and the 3Imp splits in 3-4 parts/factions and fights it out.
Never read Survival Margin, eh?
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby 2330ADUSA1 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:45 am

GypsyComet wrote:
2330ADUSA1 wrote:What I would like to see is the Rebellion happen, BUT a clone/double of Stephen was killed and the 3Imp splits in 3-4 parts/factions and fights it out.
Never read Survival Margin, eh?
*** Why yes I have BUT I want to see books for EACH faction and great amounts of details. Do you know there are books written on almost every Battle of the American Civil War, and they are quite interesting in the details. I feel if they created a seperate book for each faction on stuff that happened per year for each faction, there would be awesome amounts of details in there for all to use.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Wil Mireu » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:17 am

2330ADUSA1 wrote:*** Why yes I have BUT I want to see books for EACH faction and great amounts of details. Do you know there are books written on almost every Battle of the American Civil War, and they are quite interesting in the details. I feel if they created a seperate book for each faction on stuff that happened per year for each faction, there would be awesome amounts of details in there for all to use.
I really would not like to see Traveller turned into a militaristic SF game, with details that nobody would ever use in actual play.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby GypsyComet » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:19 am

Wil Mireu wrote: I really would not like to see Traveller turned into a militaristic SF game, with details that nobody would ever use in actual play.
Too late for that, though I think most of the age of mercenary contracts as roleplaying has passed, since Mongoose is not re-issuing any of the Traveller-associated boardgames or wargames. I realize M arc is keeping those available in some form, but the military side of Traveller is not the current trend. Ironic, since in Traveller's heydays military SF was a small minority, and now it rules the bookstore shelves.
I feel if they created a seperate book for each faction on stuff that happened per year for each faction, there would be awesome amounts of details in there for all to use.
The Rebellion was already the biggest spectator event in all of roleplaying, and you want to add more to it?

The specific events were kept vague for a reason: PCs. The TAS News entries for the Rebellion detail some signature events, and the adventures Knightfall and Flaming Eye picked out a few more, but by and large the fighting was kept abstract to allow campaign events to be controlled by referees, not some reference book.

There is another reason. One that takes a bit of background to realize: There weren't that many big set-piece battles. The big warships take years to build and hours to demolish, along with centuries worth of collective crew experience in each ship. Lucan made sure to pound on every faction that rose up around him, even sending fleets fairly far afield to punish Daibei for their lack of support even while they kept the Solomani at bay. But fleets are *months* in transit each way, may be discovered and delayed at multiple points, and may not be a viable fighting force ever again. The only reason Lucan and Dulinor kept trading blows is that they were *only* two sectors apart and had a lot of mega worlds to build fleets on even closer together. Margaret and Brzk were in the same range, and more defensive than the other two, but the reality was probably only a handful of big battles per year across ten thousand systems, and not one of them decisive. Fewer each year, too.

Lots of little battles, though. Thousands. Too many to cover. How many times can you describe the actions of an element of some fleet, under orders after a big offensive to scatter, salt some enemy ground, and make their way back to base? It may be significant to the planets they picked on, but it isn't Sherman's March by any stretch.
Commander's Log - Imperial Destroyer Squadron Ley 288th: 121-1123. We jumped into System Blah, were forced to shoot up several SDBs that challenged our right to refuel at the gas giant, sank a refueling orbital for good measure, and mined the gas giant on our way out. Exited system for System Blorg on 124-1123.
Repeat several dozen times for that squadron, then dozens of times for that Expeditionary Fleet, then repeat for each faction.

Any author willing to take that on is asking for a nasty case of occupational insanity.

I ran a "Life During Wartime" campaign in Daibei. Significant events included the (then) Imperial retreat from the system the PCs were stuck in, the Solomani arrival right behind them, and the occasional change in SolSec Political Officers from then on. It was enough for the PCs to know that the front was "that way" and that the shipyards were in constant use for Solomani fleet repairs by cowed and guarded locals. The war was background noise.
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Re: Traveller TNE?

Postby Golan2072 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:13 pm

daryen wrote:Let me explain it this way. Let's assume you want to use a form of the Spinward Marches as your basis for this new setting. OK, that's fine, and it sounds like your assertion is correct. However, what you can do if you pitch the OTU is stick the capital of the main human empire in the adjacent sector to trailing of the main sector. You can move the Hivers and K'kree much closer so that you don't have to choose which major races will be found, but can use them ALL. As a corollary, you can massively condense space so that Relevant Space is just nine sectors (our new Spinward Marches, plus the eight surrounding sectors), rather than 30 or whatever. You can also modify your new Spinward Marches to change UWPs, world locations, whatever is necessary.

Also, who says it needs to be the equivalent of 1100? Maybe the max TL is 12 (or whatever magic number you want to use). You can do whatever you want.

Here is an example of what I am thinking. (This doesn't have to be the result. It is simply something I came up with off the top of my head to explain the idea.) Let's go ahead and use the Spinward Marches as the basis. Let's just keep it virtually unmodified. (I would modify it, but this lets us ignore that issue for now.) I will use the existing names of the surrounding sectors as they exist in the OTU, but obviously they would likely change. Despite keeping the names, everything about the surrounding sectors changes.

Deneb is dominated by the Imperium. The Imperium is a bit less than a sector in size, and it is displaced a bit spinward and rimward, meaning it occupies portions of four actual sectors. Gvurrdon is Vargr dominated, with Zhodani presence on the spinward edge. The Zhodani are about the same size as the Imperium; its heart is in Ziaf... with small pieces in Gvurrdon, Foreven, and the Marches. Foreven contains the K'kree, who stretch back spinward somewhat. The Aslan are in Trojan Reach, and also slide back spinward, meaning the Aslan and K'kree have a long, violent border region. Across Reft are the Hivers. They have a path across the Rift, and have settled worlds in the Rift. They act as peaceful traders (but we know the truth).

This allows you to have most of the neat features of the OTU, but repackaged to be smaller, more contained, and much more manageable. It is possible for characters to meet any of the major races without having to leave the Spinward Marches. The major empires are still large, but are much smaller than in the OTU. And none of this can be done in the OTU, as the astrography is set in stone. But, in this new setting, anything is possible.

Or, if you really want to go nuts, make a true recovery setting. The largest of the various empires is not quite two subsectors in size. There are multiple human empires, but also empires for the various major races, too. The leading TL is 12, but there are relic artifacts that can range up to TL 15 and 16. What is the difference between a 1300+ OTU and this? The fact that all of the major races can be present if we so choose. We are not limited by the massive setting of the OTU.

How about this: Take Reaver's Deep. Push the Imperial border back so that the Imperium, Solomani, and Aslan have no more than a subsector's worth of worlds. Leave the existing pocket empires. Define that the Aslan, Solomani, and Imperium are each a little bigger than a half a sector sized empire each. The result is a great setting of small empires that is familiar, but let's the various small empires have more influence and not just exist at the whims of the bigger empires. Sure, any of the big empires could crush a given pocket empire. But, at their minimal size, it would require so much effort they would become weakened and vulnerable to one of the other two rivals. It becomes a true cold war setting, rather than the artificially generated one. And, if you want, you can still throw in Zhodani, Hivers, and/or K'kree because you can define where they are coming from. They aren't automatically excluded from the setting because you can freely move them to where they can be useful.

That is what I am talking about. Use the best of the OTU, but abandon its weaknesses and limitations.
I. LOVE. THIS.

Really, it gets my creative juices flowing. All the good OTU flavour, but with TL12 tech and a smaller universe (probably also a shorter timeline) - without the flaws of the OTU. I'm getting the urge to create a VTU (Variant Traveller Universe) based on something like this, as well as, maybe, the flavour of the old Laserburn wargaming rules.
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