Traveller 5th Edition

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
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daryen
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby daryen » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:07 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Reducing physical and mental attributes to 0 results in death. Your clone is activated upon news of your death if you have life insurance.
Whoa! Let's pause a moment on this item ...

You mean to tell me that T5 stole Gold Cross from Car Wars!? Really?

[Clarification: 'Stealing' ideas from other systems is not my issue. My issue is adding that particular idea to Traveller.]
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Wil Mireu » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:42 pm

The first thing I thought with regard to the cloning was Paranoia...

It sounds like MM has really lost the plot on this version of the game.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Darzoni » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:00 pm

Eh, I can see the clone thing as kind of an nod to more modern sci-fi like the Pandora's Star books or the Eclipse Phase setting.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:52 pm

daryen wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:Reducing physical and mental attributes to 0 results in death. Your clone is activated upon news of your death if you have life insurance.
Whoa! Let's pause a moment on this item ...

You mean to tell me that T5 stole Gold Cross from Car Wars!? Really?

[Clarification: 'Stealing' ideas from other systems is not my issue. My issue is adding that particular idea to Traveller.]
Borrowed?
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:54 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:The first thing I thought with regard to the cloning was Paranoia...

It sounds like MM has really lost the plot on this version of the game.
He's gone more generic in order to include more sci-fi themes for players that never heard of the Imperium.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby daryen » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:42 pm

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
daryen wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:Reducing physical and mental attributes to 0 results in death. Your clone is activated upon news of your death if you have life insurance.
Whoa! Let's pause a moment on this item ...

You mean to tell me that T5 stole Gold Cross from Car Wars!? Really?

[Clarification: 'Stealing' ideas from other systems is not my issue. My issue is adding that particular idea to Traveller.]
Borrowed?
As I mentioned in my clarification, whether you call it 'stealing' or 'borrowing', it is the same thing. You are taking a mechanic or idea from another game that thought of it first and making it part of your game. Which, as I said, I am completely cool with. I have no problem with that and, quite frankly, wish it was done more. If someone had that good of an idea, grab hold with both fists and don't let go, regardless of whether it is 'stealing' or 'borrowing'.

I understand the desire to be more generic and less Imperium-focused. I am down with that. But the blatant overuse of magical clones is just way outside the bounds of what I really consider 'Traveller'. I am not talking about the 3I setting; I am simply talking about the feel of Traveller itself.

(And don't bring me the retcon used with un-faking the Fake Strephon. Yes, that used clones, but as independent people who were decoys, not ready made replacements with mind-imaging technology.)

Oh, and the reason I thought of Gold Cross, and not Paranoia, is because what Shawn is describing is an exact duplicate of Gold Cross. The Paranoia mechanic was intentionally ridiculous and done tongue-in-cheek. The Gold Cross, and presumably the T5 equivalent, are done straight as a legitimate part of the setting and game mechanics.

Finally, do realize this is just me making fun of including that idea in T5. I don't expect any kind of change, and it would not make me more or less likely to buy T5. I just think the idea is silly and was trying to have fun with it.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:11 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:He's gone more generic in order to include more sci-fi themes for players that never heard of the Imperium.
So what does T5 offer that you can't get in a purposely-built generic system like GURPS or HERO?

At $100 for the corebook, it sure isn't cheaper.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:24 am

daryen wrote:As I mentioned in my clarification, whether you call it 'stealing' or 'borrowing', it is the same thing. You are taking a mechanic or idea from another game that thought of it first and making it part of your game. Which, as I said, I am completely cool with. I have no problem with that and, quite frankly, wish it was done more. If someone had that good of an idea, grab hold with both fists and don't let go, regardless of whether it is 'stealing' or 'borrowing'.
Whenever someone shows me Stars Without Number, I get this weird feeling that they have a pirated copy of Mongoose Traveller. The rules are too similar.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:28 am

Wil Mireu wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote:He's gone more generic in order to include more sci-fi themes for players that never heard of the Imperium.
So what does T5 offer that you can't get in a purposely-built generic system like GURPS or HERO?

At $100 for the corebook, it sure isn't cheaper.
Nostalgia. And some extra nostalgic goodies thrown in. Why is anyone buying a $100 6th edition of Ogre? I just know there will be all kinds of errata for it later, just like the 4th and 5th editions suffered from.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:38 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:Nostalgia. And some extra nostalgic goodies thrown in. Why is anyone buying a $100 6th edition of Ogre? I just know there will be all kinds of errata for it later, just like the 4th and 5th editions suffered from.
I guess it's a lot easier to sell a game based on rose-tinted nostalgia than on actual content.

The new Ogre looks to have amazingly good production values at least, plus lots of actually useful extras in the stretch goals. T5 is insultingly poor in both of those regards (wow, extra dice! A deckplan! And 1970s artwork and design values!)

And I'm quite sure that T5 will be plagued with errata too, despite the fact that it's taken about a decade to be published.

What amazes me is that T5 is funded and yet people know hardly anything about it. The video is pretty uninformative, the voiceover is decidely unenthusiastic, nobody's described exactly what T5 will offer over other editions of Traveller and exactly how or why the systems in there are better, and so far the best reason I have seen given for people to invest in it is "this is a new version of that game that you used to love! And it's written by the guy who originally wrote it!".

Overall this kickstarter has been pretty negatively received on a lot of forums (even on CotI) and yet it's still gone beyond its basic funding goals. I guess it goes to show that there are suckers born every minute ;).
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby BP » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:35 am

Fans more like...

The same folks who helped spur initial sales of MgT, no doubt. ;)
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby far-trader » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:59 am

Wil Mireu wrote: Overall this kickstarter has been pretty negatively received on a lot of forums (even on CotI)...
I keep seeing this reported, and yet I'm not really seeing it in fact. I see the same few people doing a lot of complaining, but I expected it of them, they have long had an axe to grind. And as you note...
Wil Mireu wrote:...and yet it's still gone beyond its basic funding goals.
Indeed. It even looks to make $100,000. Four times that basic funding goal. I wasn't expecting much more than the initial $25,000 myself but I was not at all surprised it got that in a day. And nearly 700 backers now.
Wil Mireu wrote:I guess it goes to show that there are suckers born every minute ;).
Nothing underlines a point like an insult. Unless that wink at the end is meant to make one take it as sarcasm.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby far-trader » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:00 am

BP wrote:Fans more like...

The same folks who helped spur initial sales of MgT, no doubt. ;)
QFT
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:54 am

Wil Mireu wrote:Overall this kickstarter has been pretty negatively received on a lot of forums (even on CotI) and yet it's still gone beyond its basic funding goals. I guess it goes to show that there are suckers born every minute ;).
Some store owners are getting their orders in. Probably just game collectors.

When WOTC does their D&D Next Kickstarter, I expect their goal of $10,000,000 to be reached by the 3rd day.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby far-trader » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:33 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote: Some store owners are getting their orders in.
I dunno, maybe one store copy to put up on the top shelf, maybe, and sealed in cello with a big "Signed by Marc W. Miller: Mint: $500" which they'll never get. Well not for a while anyway. It wouldn't pay* a store to buy copies (multiple) for resale at the price it's going for in the Kickstarter. I suspect it's mostly fans and friends. And reading some of the comments, some fans who have been out of the game loop for years. It seems largely driven by collectible dreams and fond memories. Is that such a bad thing?

* except maybe as a big speculative trade gamble ;)
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:12 am

far-trader wrote:
Wil Mireu wrote: Overall this kickstarter has been pretty negatively received on a lot of forums (even on CotI)...
I keep seeing this reported, and yet I'm not really seeing it in fact. I see the same few people doing a lot of complaining, but I expected it of them, they have long had an axe to grind.
There have been a couple of threads on RPGnet about it, with the vast majority of people there not being impressed by the pledges, or by how insanely expensive the book is ($100? and possibly $40 postage on top of that?). The reaction on CotI and the SJG forums have been similarly negative or apathetic.

This isn't just "the same few people doing a lot of complaining". It's a lot of people who may have been interested being put off by the pledges and rewards and the pricing. But...

Indeed. It even looks to make $100,000. Four times that basic funding goal. I wasn't expecting much more than the initial $25,000 myself but I was not at all surprised it got that in a day. And nearly 700 backers now.
It's not really surprising though is it, given the way it's being "sold". As I said, nostalgia is a powerful sales tool. I can only imagine how disappointed people will be once they see what they've bought into.

Wil Mireu wrote:Nothing underlines a point like an insult. Unless that wink at the end is meant to make one take it as sarcasm.
I don't see much reason to respect people who spend so much money on something without having any idea what they're buying into, solely because it's by someone who did a thing they once liked or to have it sit on their shelves (but hey, it's their money, I suppose).

However, perhaps you'd be in a position to explain what T5 actually contains and can describe its actual merits as a as a roleplaying game rather than as a "collector's item" or because it's written by someone important? I'd like to see someone go into detail about this, but the kickstarter page doesn't even have a decent preview of what's in it.

One interesting point has been raised elsewhere though - what is all that money going to be spent on? Does it really cost $24,000 to do a limited run of a book, even one this big? Would it really cost tens of thousands more to add more dice, or a players book, or a deckplan? Or is most of this going to be profit into FFE's pockets?
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:21 am

far-trader wrote:
ShawnDriscoll wrote: Some store owners are getting their orders in.
I dunno, maybe one store copy to put up on the top shelf, maybe, and sealed in cello with a big "Signed by Marc W. Miller: Mint: $500" which they'll never get. Well not for a while anyway. It wouldn't pay* a store to buy copies (multiple) for resale at the price it's going for in the Kickstarter. I suspect it's mostly fans and friends. And reading some of the comments, some fans who have been out of the game loop for years. It seems largely driven by collectible dreams and fond memories. Is that such a bad thing?

* except maybe as a big speculative trade gamble ;)
Not a bad thing. Baby Boomers pay top dollar to collect all kinds of things they previously owned in their youth.
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Dave Chase » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:01 pm

10 years ago, absoultely 20 years ago, I would be all over this and buying in to what ever level I could have afforded.

Now, I am interested in the material. Having my name or such printed on it as a tester, not so much.

Having Marc's signature on it, is a cool factor, but not required. I always try to get the designer's signature on product if I could. Not because the increase value of the book on the market, but because it's a cool thing to have.

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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby BP » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:...
There have been a couple of threads on RPGnet about it, with the vast majority of people there not being impressed by the pledges, or by how insanely expensive the book is ($100? and possibly $40 postage on top of that?). The reaction on CotI and the SJG forums have been similarly negative or apathetic.
My MgT High Guard says US $24.95 and its 150 pages... the T5 book is 600 pages... you do the math. :wink:

Besides the extra swag - keep in mind that is a Kickstarter - not the retail price of the book.

As to CotI - the same people making negative comments in multiple threads and one dedicated complaint thread <shrug>
Wil Mireu wrote:...
However, perhaps you'd be in a position to explain what T5 actually contains and can describe its actual merits as a as a roleplaying game rather than as a "collector's item" or because it's written by someone important? I'd like to see someone go into detail about this, but the kickstarter page doesn't even have a decent preview of what's in it.
The Kickstarter page obviously is appealing to fans, and yeah, isn't really all that informative... and obviously didn't need to be.

The FFE website has had the TOC for several years now, as well as the T5 CDRom beta and access to a restricted CotI forum.

Several folks on CotI have even been playing games with the T5 beta rules for several years now.
Wil Mireu wrote:...
One interesting point has been raised elsewhere though - what is all that money going to be spent on? Does it really cost $24,000 to do a limited run of a book, even one this big? Would it really cost tens of thousands more to add more dice, or a players book, or a deckplan? Or is most of this going to be profit into FFE's pockets?
A common misconception about Kickstarter - it isn't limited to funding non-profits.

The T5 kickstarter seems to be about getting the financing to 'get it done'. Marc has spent well over a decade on it (yeah, a point of contention by many *shrug*) - do you think that should come for free?

He may also want to compensate others - contributors, testers, proof readers (hopefully), artists, etc.

Not to mention, a limited run in the print world is generally 1,000 minimum and could very well be a big chunk of the original goal of $24 per copy.

Given the extras he keeps throwing in - the book level comes with a mailed CD-Rom and several swag items along with personally signing each one - he's obviously not thinking just scamming 'suckers' to get their money. :roll:
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Re: Traveller 5th Edition

Postby Eisenmann » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:37 pm

Oh, it's an unenthusiastic flub. The intarwebs say so. Oh, it got funded? Well...

Uh.

Hmm. Oh, I got it. Those people are suckers. That's it.

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