Altering combat lethality

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Easterner
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Easterner » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:31 am

Aerosol grenades. Cr15. 6m square is covered. Pop one and watch laser get reduced by 10, then it hits hits cloth and loses another 3-6 and loses 10 more when it hits reflec under armor & clothes . So down 23-26 so even max 5D+3=33 is reduced to less than lethal while average hits have no affect at all.

In a very detailed combat you could in theory pop multiple aerosols in different squares and 100% negate lasers.
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far-trader
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby far-trader » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:17 am

Easterner wrote:Aerosol grenades...

In a very detailed combat you could in theory pop multiple aerosols in different squares and 100% negate lasers.
Of course they won't work in vacuum, won't last in wind, and won't work in rain* for three cases off the top of my head. There might be others. And you have to pop them before the lasers are fired to be effective, so basically the lasers have a free shot unaffected by them unless you have some forewarning. And you won't be using lasers yourself naturally, and probably can't carry a whole lot of aerosol grenades on the chance of needing them. A few sure, but bullets and other kit will take precedence, again unless you have foreknowledge that you'll be facing only lasers.

* which may have it's own effect on lasers of course, but then that would be an environment I wouldn't rely on a laser for anyway

It still seems like the laser defenses are too cheap, too light, and too effective. We aren't talking about stopping a pen sized laser pointer, or even a tactical blinding laser. We're talking a full on lethal laser blast. I have always found reflec a bit hard to swallow at the price and size, ablative armour was far more believable.
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:00 am

Good old reflec. The magical shiny stuff that stops lasers.

So its rigid then to maintain a reflective face towards the enemy.?

Erm nope it’s a cloth cover.

So how does it handle the wrinkles and folds on the arms and legs?

Erm handwavium.

So how does it remain reflective when used in the mud and the dirt of everyday life not to mention a battlefield?

Erm mandwavium stay clean material.

So how does it work against higher tech lasers outside the optical range such as X-ray what with it being a light cloth like material, how does that stop x-rays?

Erm handwavium.

So being as how it is incredibly reflective across the whole possible laser spectrum and keeps itself clean and shiny how do you not spot someone wearing it miles away since they will be reflecting every possible visible light off themselves?

Erm Handwavium stealth camo handwavium stuff.

Does it come with a free pair of shades?
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Easterner » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:32 am

Because it's underwear in TRAV now, keep up with events.

CSC
Unlike other forms of armour, Reflec is worn
under other clothing.

See makes all those years of arguments I had with reflec go away. :)
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:23 am

Easterner wrote:Because it's underwear in TRAV now, keep up with events.

CSC
Unlike other forms of armour, Reflec is worn
under other clothing.

See makes all those years of arguments I had with reflec go away. :)
Riiiiight.

So the super reflective stuff goes under the clothing, the laser flash vapourises the outer clothing to expose the reflec which reflects the laser beam back through the clothing flash vapourising more of it and if the clothing is dry all that released energy/heat is going to set it on fire rather than explosively boil/explode the meat underneath.

Combat.

Ref. The laser hits you and does 12 damage.
Player. Ok my reflect stops 10 points so that 2 END.
Ref. Wait a minute. I asked was anyone weaing armour when you left the ship and you all said no.
Player. But its reflec longjohns. I wear them under my clothes.
Ref. Right then. your clothes are on fire, thats an extra 1D6 damage this turn without armour (rolls 4). Next turn it will be 2D6 as the rest of your clothes catch fire. :twisted:
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby hdan » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:33 pm

Even standard TL-7 clothing is somewhat flame retardant, and anything a ship's crew is likely to be wearing around would be more so. You'd get one or two nice new holes punched in your overalls, but burning seems pretty unlikely. And as far as dirt or what have you, unless the beam hits that part, you'd be ok. And that's what Effect bonuses are for, right?

The real danger of reflec is being next to someone who is wearing it. :)
/hdan
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:45 pm

hdan wrote:The real danger of reflec is being next to someone who is wearing it. :)
Next thing you know, said person wearing reflec is wanting you to smoke him a kippper.
Best start investing in rubber... He'll be back for breakfast. :wink:
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby far-trader » Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:33 pm

hdan wrote:
The real danger of reflec is being next to someone who is wearing it. :)
You know, all the games we played with it when younger I'm surprised not one of us asked "Where does the beam go after it is Reflec-ted?" But then I think while Reflec was often bought it never really saw much use. The bad guys generally stuck to the more mundane slug throwers in our games. Probably because they knew the PCs all had Reflec underwear :wink:

I also wonder that some poor ref has never had to deal with the munchkin who insists that it is Reflec-ted directly back on it's path... zapping the firer with their own weapon, or at least slagging the barrel of the laser rifle :lol:
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Easterner » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:50 am

ROFL!!!!!

Great comments!

I hope Dan all this illustrates why I have no use for lasers, they seem like potential dead ends, are easily defeated. And the whole lot of defense is nonsenses piled on top of more nonsense.

Last question. Was that reflec worn on original Lost In Space?

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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby far-trader » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:56 am

Easterner wrote:
I hope Dan all this illustrates why I have no use for lasers, they seem like potential dead ends, are easily defeated. And the whole lot of defense is nonsenses piled on top of more nonsense.
Oh, I get where you're coming from, I just think you have it bass-ackwards :-)

Reflec is silly. That is what needs to be dropped like a hot potato, in fact that's all it's good for, wrapping up potatoes to bake.

Lasers themselves are not the way you seem to imagine them imo. They are lethal models, not simple low power pointers/blinders. If they were the damage listing would be 0 with a note of possible blinding if proper eye protection is not worn. Right?

But to each their own :-) I shall agree to disagree and part ways on it amicably.
Easterner wrote:Last question. Was that reflec worn on original Lost In Space?
I don't recall? Did it ever stop laser shots? They did have lasers didn't they? I have the vaguest of recollections that it was just an anti-radiation suit, but that might have been from somewhere else.
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby allanimal » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:22 am

Captain Jonah wrote:
Erm handwavium.
I think it is the common isotope of handwavium that is commonly known as highertechlevelonium.
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby kafka » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:10 pm

Double the dice for damage. Keep armour as is.

Realistically, I would want to see the whole thing redone as a Snapshot supplement but the task of untangling combat is a game jenga pull too much and the whole thing comes down. So, I do not envy the writer.

Best combat rules that I have seen are in Kult RPG and BRP - simple, fast and deadly. And, realizing that you do more damage to someone by punching them in the face rather than shooting extraordinarily poorly.
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Solomani666 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:36 am

COMBAT DAMAGE

I leave the combat damage the same according to the rules with only one major exception:

If a roll to hit is the exact number needed then I consider it a grazing hit and apply only half damage rounding down.
This makes sense since, according to the task effect chart, an effect of 0 is a
"Marginal Success: The character barely succeeds at the task."


One thing that I do think needs to be added to the combat system are several additional categories for ranged weapons.


.
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Captain Jonah » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:02 pm

Just a question for the people trying to make combat more dangerous.

WHY?

If your characters are runnning around in high end combat armour or Battledress use bigger weapons.

For characters in 5 point flak or 10 point carapace type weapons are still danagerous if its the right weapons.

Body armour designed to stop pistols shots does just that. A 10 point carapace will stop most 3D shots, its designed to do that. Making pistols do 6 dice means with some of the best non military armour in the entire OTU some clown with a pistol can take you down with just two shots of average damage. Soft armour becomes pointless since a single shot with a 6D pistol can drop you.

ACRs doing 8D, lasers doing 10D. Why bother with plasma and Fusion when a burst of ACR fire or two laser hits takes down those Imperial battledress marines.

A single shotgun or rifle can kill your entire party blowing huge holes through the soft armour they are wearing in the process. The bad guys stage an ambush with pistols, roll up some new characters. A gun fight with pirates, roll up new charaters.

Traveller isn't a heroic combat system, getting shot is dangerous, its not like Traveller characters have more hit points than three warhorses :roll:
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:43 am

Glad to read that others are dubious about the laser negating effects of aerosols and reflect armour.

Overall, I feel that MgT has got weapon damage vs personal stats about right for a RPG. Experience shows that the RAW create a good game, and though we have amended one or two things, and altered the effects of some weapons (and disallowed some of the less likely ones from csc), basically the system works and delivers a good game without either too much, game slowing, complexity, or characters dying too readily.

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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Captain Jonah » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:48 am

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:Glad to read that others are dubious about the laser negating effects of aerosols and reflect armour.

Overall, I feel that MgT has got weapon damage vs personal stats about right for a RPG. Experience shows that the RAW create a good game, and though we have amended one or two things, and altered the effects of some weapons (and disallowed some of the less likely ones from csc), basically the system works and delivers a good game without either too much, game slowing, complexity, or characters dying too readily.

Egil
Well in terms of defending against weapons grade lasers a bit of shiny cloth will not do it.

This is the description I used for the Twilight game:

Anti laser weave. A tight weave of ceramics and crystal fibres designed to spread the thermal transfer from laser hits across a large area so you get a wide burn rather than a smaller crater in you. Adds 1Kg and Cr1500 to a cloth suit or 1/2kg and Cr800 to a crew jacket or ballistic vest. These provide armour 10 against laser attacks only (this replaces the armour value vs lasers if the armour has a lower value, does not add to it) (yes this is Reflec but it’s not shiny tin foil which is a stupid idea).

This stuff is bulky, several CM thick and does NOT fit under clothing. Though we did make up a ball shaped coat for wrapping round the AI's Drone shell :wink:

You can defend against lasers with ablative as well which should be effective for a second or two till it vaporises.

In terms of Aerosols. You need to be dumping something that blocks the entire visible spectrum, plus the IR range to cover those types of lasers, the material you are putting into the air needs to be tough enough to withstand or ablate the laser energy, at tech 12ish and above it needs to be able to stop x-rays since you swap up to x-ray lasers around then oh and it needs to be light enough to float in the air not sink straight down to the ground.

Dump a multi spectrum smoke grenade, hide so the enemy cannot see you. That provides 100% protection from laser shots :lol:
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby AndrewW » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:32 pm

Captain Jonah wrote:This stuff is bulky, several CM thick and does NOT fit under clothing. Though we did make up a ball shaped coat for wrapping round the AI's Drone shell :wink:
Yeah, but I look ridiculous wearing it...
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby billclo » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:11 pm

""1. Shock of impact. If a person is hit by slug weapon (e.g. slug rifle or pistol), energy weapon (e.g. laser pistol) or caught in an explosion they lose their next significant action in combat, even if the impact fails to penetrate their armour and inflicts no other damage. The target is knocked prone unless a successful Str roll made. If hit by muscle powered projectile (e.g. an arrow) or thrown (e.g. a rock or a javelin) lose next minor action, and takes knocked prone roll at +4.
".

I would say that pistols do NOT knock down a person wearing soft armor. It's been very well documented that police routinely take pistol hits while wearing soft armor and are able to effectively return fire. Certainly they are not knocked down, ala Hollywood.

Rifles vs hard plates, you're probably staggered a bit, but not knocked down unless you are in an unstable standing postion. Same with shotguns.

Shotguns aren't particularly effective vs soft armor. Buckshot is easy to stop, and slugs are stoppable though you are going to take some damage from the blunt trauma/backface deformation (unless you are wearing a steel trauma plate which mitigates much of the backface deformation).

"A single shotgun or rifle can kill your entire party blowing huge holes through the soft armour they are wearing in the process."

Um no, shotguns won't do that. Rifles vs soft armor, sure. Ever see what the clay backing behind a piece of soft armor looks like after a 5.56 hit? Ugh. Check this out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_2.htm
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:01 pm

[quote="billclo]"A single shotgun or rifle can kill your entire party blowing huge holes through the soft armour they are wearing in the process."

Um no, shotguns won't do that. Rifles vs soft armor, sure. Ever see what the clay backing behind a piece of soft armor looks like after a 5.56 hit? Ugh. Check this out: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_2.htm[/quote]

If you look at what I was talking about you can see that I was referring to the comments earlier about doubling the damage of all weapons.

I KNOW that good soft armour will, in real life, stop a shotgun spread or lower velocity rounds.

However the earlier comment was to double all damage. So that shotgun would be doing 8D. It doesn't take many hits like that to reduce a character in 5 points of soft armour to a stain on the wall.

Kafka posted his idea to double damage. My response was as I posted.

A shotgun doing 8 dice will average 28 damage. Your flak vest stops 5 points. Woohoo that’s 23 damage you take, what were your stats again. Heck the average shotgun damage has a chance to put down a character in Combat armour. Enough armour through to put a foot ball sized hole through a character is going to put a hole in the armour as well. I know how armour performs in real life, Doubling weapon damage in traveller is nothing like real life.

Personally I think Traveller combat is lethal enough as it is.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
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Re: Altering combat lethality

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:35 am

billclo wrote:""1. Shock of impact. If a person is hit by slug weapon (e.g. slug rifle or pistol), energy weapon (e.g. laser pistol) or caught in an explosion they lose their next significant action in combat, even if the impact fails to penetrate their armour and inflicts no other damage. The target is knocked prone unless a successful Str roll made. If hit by muscle powered projectile (e.g. an arrow) or thrown (e.g. a rock or a javelin) lose next minor action, and takes knocked prone roll at +4.
".

I would say that pistols do NOT knock down a person wearing soft armor. It's been very well documented that police routinely take pistol hits while wearing soft armor and are able to effectively return fire. Certainly they are not knocked down, ala Hollywood.

Rifles vs hard plates, you're probably staggered a bit, but not knocked down unless you are in an unstable standing postion.
billclo, I think your first point is quoting me, though you haven't attributed it. Note the section I have highlighted, a knockdown is not automatic, but many folk hit by a bullet fall over, even if there is not much more damage, it is generally a bit of a shock to be hit by a fast moving projectile(s). And yes, some of those hit are then able to bounce back and return fire, but not immediatly after being hit (unless, of course, in a movie). Perhaps the str roll should be made at +2 if a pistol involved, but the loss of a significant action is an attempt to model the effects of being hit by a slug more accurately, increasing the effect without increasing the damage.

The shock of impact is even more significant when high velocity rifle bullet is involved. Remember the velocity imparts a very high level of energy and momentum, those who have been hit by rifle bullets often talk about being knocked over, "whacked by a huge bat" or describe the force as "like being runover".

Personally, I think the loss of a significant action (4 seconds of game time) is not unreasonable.

Egil
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